VIK guitars drama

[ejecta]

My point was specifically related to the religious institutions that make it gospel acceptable to hate another human being based on their sexuality & actually preach that hatred to millions upon millions upon millions of highly impressionable people. That might be acceptable in the worlds of catholicism, christianity & islam etc, but it doesn't make it actually, morally acceptable in the real, evolved world.

LOL! What a load of bullshit. Show me where in the teachings of christianity in context that it's "acceptable" to hate another human being for any reason. I'll be waiting.

Here's a hint.... because the bible says something is a sin and teaches to abstain from that act is not teaching people to hate others who practice that sin. That's just people using hyperbole to justify their belief that christianity teaches hate.

 

[JimmyBlind]

And please explain to me where this evolved world is that you live in. I'd love to see it and hear all about it.

It's that world where we don't discriminate against human beings based on their sexuality and where in 2014, our foundation for understanding the universe & our existence are no longer founded on the texts within a 2000 year old metaphorical law book. And where we don't teach children from birth that the things they do wrong by the laws of the bible, which includes the lying down of a man with another man (which is entirely against someone's biological control), is eternally punished in hell.
That's the evolved world i'm speaking of.

 

[timeroo]

My point was specifically related to the religious institutions that make it gospel acceptable to hate another human being based on their sexuality & actually preach that hatred to millions upon millions upon millions of highly impressionable people. That might be acceptable in the worlds of catholicism, christianity & islam etc, but it doesn't make it actually, morally acceptable in the real, evolved world.

LOL! What a load of bullshit. Show me where in the teachings of christianity in context that it's "acceptable" to hate another human being for any reason. I'll be waiting.

Here's a hint.... because the bible says something is a sin and teaches to abstain from that act is not teaching people to hate others who practice that sin. That's just people using hyperbole to justify their belief that christianity teaches hate.

You should relay that information to the shitloads of religious people that haven't gotten that memo. I agree with the fact that the bible doesn't teach hate but there is a massive number of religious people around the world that certainly evolved that way.

 

[ejecta]

My point was specifically related to the religious institutions that make it gospel acceptable to hate another human being based on their sexuality & actually preach that hatred to millions upon millions upon millions of highly impressionable people. That might be acceptable in the worlds of catholicism, christianity & islam etc, but it doesn't make it actually, morally acceptable in the real, evolved world.

LOL! What a load of bullshit. Show me where in the teachings of christianity in context that it's "acceptable" to hate another human being for any reason. I'll be waiting.

Here's a hint.... because the bible says something is a sin and teaches to abstain from that act is not teaching people to hate others who practice that sin. That's just people using hyperbole to justify their belief that christianity teaches hate.

You should relay that information to the shitloads of religious people that haven't gotten that memo. I agree with the fact that the bible doesn't teach hate but there is a massive number of religious people around the world that certainly evolved that way.

Sure no problem but here is the the rub... selfishness is definitely not exclusive to people who follow a religion. People's tendency to only look out for themselves is a human problem not a relgion problem. I've met just as many selfish assholes who follow no religion at all as those who claim to follow a higher calling. So you tell all the anti-religious folks to stop being selfish assholes as well.

Can we just start dealing with people on a one on one basis and stop with the baseless broad assinine generalizations of large groups of people?

 

[LowDesertSludge]

I've often wonder where people get the idea that Christians are perfect sinless creatures. There was only 1 and there will never be another. Everybody falls short . We ALL make mistakes.

 

[timeroo]

My point was specifically related to the religious institutions that make it gospel acceptable to hate another human being based on their sexuality & actually preach that hatred to millions upon millions upon millions of highly impressionable people. That might be acceptable in the worlds of catholicism, christianity & islam etc, but it doesn't make it actually, morally acceptable in the real, evolved world.

LOL! What a load of bullshit. Show me where in the teachings of christianity in context that it's "acceptable" to hate another human being for any reason. I'll be waiting.

Here's a hint.... because the bible says something is a sin and teaches to abstain from that act is not teaching people to hate others who practice that sin. That's just people using hyperbole to justify their belief that christianity teaches hate.

You should relay that information to the shitloads of religious people that haven't gotten that memo. I agree with the fact that the bible doesn't teach hate but there is a massive number of religious people around the world that certainly evolved that way.

Sure no problem but here is the the rub... selfishness is definitely not exclusive to people who follow a religion. People's tendency to only look out for themselves is a human problem not a relgion problem. I've met just as many selfish assholes who follow no religion at all as those who claim to follow a higher calling. So you tell all the anti-religious folks to stop being selfish assholes as well.

Can we just start dealing with people on a one on one basis and stop with the baseless broad assinine generalizations of large groups of people?

I wish.

 

[TDePaul1313]

I have respect for people of all walks of life. I will never own one of these guitars. Even if someone was to give me one.

 

[crankyrayhanky]

I'd like to persecute the people who persecute the people persecuting the vik guy who is persecuting with intolerance...I'm not sure how to get that going

 

[ke2]

came out of the closet in public.
Why even have an opinion about it? There are lots of things that come to mind, that make me respect PM and SR.

Why the need to express ones feelings about someone else's sexuality in public?

My question to the above would be this....Why come "out" in a public way and then not expect someone else to not have a "public" opinion based on how he/she feels? I agree with whats been said above about him being a business owner and maybe its not the smartest business decision to voice this publicly.I guess it's just the way it is now a days? If your personal opinions aren't in line with this new age way of thinking, you basically have to keep your hole shut or be persecuted.
My longtime girlfriends daughter is gay and it doesn't bother me in the least and I've never thought twice about it honestly, but this is America and we are supposed to have freedom of speech right? If someone doesn't like it and they want to have an opinion publicly, I have no problem with that.

It might just be that your freedom of speech is abused by bigots to spew hatred, and hide behind the freedom flag.
Swap "gay" with "black", "jew", "disabled".. None of them can change what they are

 

[Giga]

Reading threads like this make me think of Gdwill2you (or something like that, don't remember exactly) May he rest in peace !

Giga

 

[Stealthtastic]

Its too bad he has really messed his business up because the guy builds amazing guitars.

 

[Mr. Willy]

My point was specifically related to the religious institutions that make it gospel acceptable to hate another human being based on their sexuality & actually preach that hatred to millions upon millions upon millions of highly impressionable people. That might be acceptable in the worlds of catholicism, christianity & islam etc, but it doesn't make it actually, morally acceptable in the real, evolved world.

LOL! What a load of bullshit. Show me where in the teachings of christianity in context that it's "acceptable" to hate another human being for any reason. I'll be waiting.

Here's a hint.... because the bible says something is a sin and teaches to abstain from that act is not teaching people to hate others who practice that sin. That's just people using hyperbole to justify their belief that christianity teaches hate.

You should relay that information to the shitloads of religious people that haven't gotten that memo. I agree with the fact that the bible doesn't teach hate but there is a massive number of religious people around the world that certainly evolved that way.

Sure no problem but here is the the rub... selfishness is definitely not exclusive to people who follow a religion. People's tendency to only look out for themselves is a human problem not a relgion problem. I've met just as many selfish assholes who follow no religion at all as those who claim to follow a higher calling. So you tell all the anti-religious folks to stop being selfish assholes as well.

Can we just start dealing with people on a one on one basis and stop with the baseless broad assinine generalizations of large groups of people?

Yes!!! Thank you!

 

[Rogue]

We are free to support the genital mutilation of women, superiority of men, keeping women from education, and incarceration of gays.

WTF dude? Do you really believe that? Are we living in the dark ages here still?

He's just making one of his normal idiotic "points". Just ignore his tripe.

 

[JimmyBlind]

We are free to support the genital mutilation of women, superiority of men, keeping women from education, and incarceration of gays.

WTF dude? Do you really believe that? Are we living in the dark ages here still?

He's just making one of his normal idiotic "points". Just ignore his tripe.

I think his comment was more aimed at making a point about freedom of opinion & speech, which is valid. I don't think he's saying he actually holds those views. At least, that's not how I read it.

 

[ejecta]

We are free to support the genital mutilation of women, superiority of men, keeping women from education, and incarceration of gays.

WTF dude? Do you really believe that? Are we living in the dark ages here still?

He's just making one of his normal idiotic "points". Just ignore his tripe.

I think his comment was more aimed at making a point about freedom of opinion & speech, which is valid. I don't think he's saying he actually holds those views. At least, that's not how I read it.

Ironically I think HS was making a similar point that was made by Bill Maher last week.

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/bill-maher-b ... I9O_m4nX1o



Here is a partial transcript and I think this was HS point on how he sees a double standard of some liberals.

Maher cited several examples of double standards of the left’s view toward the Islamic world, one of which included the view of Muslims in Egypt towards abandoning Islam as evidence to back his claim.

“[Islamic extremists] draw support from the general population,” Maher said. “There was a Pew poll of Egypt, which is a leading Muslim country -- maybe the leading Muslim country. It's something like 80 or 90 percent believe that death is the proper punishment for leaving the religion. We have a sister on at the beginning of the show. If 84 percent of Brazilians thought that death was the proper penalty for leaving Catholicism wouldn't that be a bigger story?”

Maher’s two liberal guests, Arianna Huffington and Baratunde Thurston, begged to differ with Maher’s dispositions toward the so-called “religion of peace.”

Maher also cited the plight of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a Somali immigrant who underwent genital mutilation as child and has also been an outspoken critic of the Islam. Ali had been set to receive an honorary degree Brandeis University but had that honor revoked because of that outspokenness.

Thurston took on Ali’s case and argued her rhetoric had been over the top, which Maher disagreed.

Partial transcript as follows:

THURSTON: The more specific challenge with her is she has gone very out far with criticism of Islam, even farther than you, Bill.

MAHER: Well, she had a bad experience.

THURSTON: She had a very bad experience. I had a bad experience with the Metro. I don't say all public transportation should --

MAHER: If they cut off your nuts when you were 5, you probably would too.

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2 ... m-Behavior

 

[JimmyBlind]

I consider myself a liberal & I don't think it's unreasonable to have negative opinions towards the islamic faith, given the events of the last 15 years. So many atrocities around the globe are executed in the name of Allah. If a large number of terrorists had attended the same school, intuition would tell you that that school was probably the primary motivator. If Islam didn't exist, then people wouldn't murder in the name of Islam. Simple as that. So fuck Islam.
"murder shit loads of innocent people & you'll be rewarded in the afterlife by breaking the virginity of 40 prepubescent, sexually inactive girls". Fuck anyone who would ever kill another human being, motivated by such a perverse promise.
If extremist views are supposedly only held by a tiny minority in the Islamic community, then the billions of its followers & those in positions of Muslim authority who control the military are absolutely obligated to oppose it & eradicate it to protect the sanctity of their faith. So why don't they?
Because just as the Irish community did in the UK when the IRA were committing their terrorist atrocities, the Irish community outside of Eire remained strangely silent & indifferent because deep down, their hearts were with their motherland & many of them agreed with it.

 

[shade]

So is it better to be a hater or to hate haters?

 

[Heritage Softail]

I am suspect of religion in a position of power. Also some idealists can be quite fanatical.

My point was about some old conservative Islamic ideas, that I quoted are horrendous! But deeply held as religious. It does not make them right.

So a person is gay or straight is their business. Not a good idea to mix that in business, knowing full well it is a polarizing issue to many, and not expect some polarized feedback.

I could give a shit less if some guy plays the skin flute. And I don't care if some guitar builder is for or against it. Seems people should be allowed to have opinions.

But killing and persecuting for those opinions is rediculous. Just my opinion. And in the US today it is almost a crime to say you do not support gay marriage. It is a crime to teach a woman to read in some old school Islamic areas. Both are bad situations.

But Rogue just does not like Islamic insanity pointed out.

Like the captured school girls in Nigeria being forced into Islam now. Crazy people out there in the name of religious causes for ing it on others.

 

[C1-ocaster]

I'm not sure what was said. By the things stated in this thread i'm guessing it was an anti gay remark. Why does he have to be ok with it? If he feels it's wrong thats his opinion. Why demonize him?

Generally, people don't want to support others who have immoral beliefs.

I haven't heard about any of this because I don't have any association with the bizarre internet click that's infatuated with Vik and similar guitars.

Immoral beliefs? If he is catholic....? I'll stop. Tolerance in this country really means tolerate the liberal leftwing views.

American political or ideological association has noting to do with accepting hatred.
If "liberals" are against hatred, does that mean "conservatives" are all for hatred?

"Tolerance" is about being objective, fair, and open to beliefs that one may not normally share.
To some it may seem that this ideal or ideology is something which only "liberals" believe.
I doubt that even "conservatives" really want to promote the idea that hatred is acceptable simply because liberals are intolerant of hateful beliefs. Or maybe I'm wrong and the conservative right really does feel that real freedom is about promoting hate and hatred towards people deemed not worthy of being part of the greater society.
If that is so, then who gets to decide who gets hated upon?

Should "tolerance" be applied to homophobia and homophobes?
Yes, we can apply objective and fair reasoning (tolerance) to the views of homophobes.
But that in no way means we should then accept that those views and beliefs are positive, helpful, or constructive.
We can easily see how those views have a very negative and destructive affect on society in general, and on individuals specifically.
No, hatred and hate filled beliefs and views do not have to be accepted as a way to give equal weight and right to those who hold those beliefs.

I accept VIK guitar founder and owner's "right" to express his beliefs. But in no way does that then mean I have to accept his views and beliefs as something I share.
If that sounds "liberal" to some, then so be it.
I don't label myself as "liberal", just for the record.

In this country, anyone can have any opinion they like.
One should also know that there may be opinions and actions from those who don't agree with you.
This guy isn't now going to stop hating gay people, just because of the backlash.
He might lose some sales, but his beliefs and opinions are still safely his own to keep.
No one can or should take that away from him, as this is still a somewhat free and open society, even if the right wing would rather it not be so "liberal".

I agree with author Evelyn Hall's words, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
It's a very American point of view, even though she was English.

 

[C1-ocaster]

The bottom line is that if you are business owner, speaking out on topics that are controversial like politics, religion, morality, etc. is a major risk. Depending on your views and current societal norms, you run the risk of alienating a LOT of people. In fact, no matter what your views, popular or not, you WILL alienate at least some folks. Operating a business is hard enough without alienating people. What some folks consider "the courage to speak your mind" others will change their opinion of you forever for. Especially when it comes to matters of religion/morality… People tend to see these issues in an extremely black and white fashion and are incredibly passionate about being "right"… Not much room for tolerance there…


If you run a business, believe whatever you want, but it's best to keep your mouth shut about these things…

Steve

Good advice, and good insight.