What's with Covers and Chasing After Other Musician's Tones?

[NowYou'rePlayingWithPower]

Shit Stir Architect..

Wasn't my intention.
I have nothing against covers.
Of course people are going to learn them and play them.
It's when it's the only thing people do and it appears that it's the only thing most people do, anymore.

 

[degenaro]

Comparing Rhoads to Yamashita is totally apples vs oranges as classical guitar is such a different instrument. Both those players were actually probably the 2 I was most inspired by as a teenager when I was new to the guitar. Make no mistake, I have massive respect for both guys and think they’re both geniuses. Rhoads’s genius was his creative ability in writing great music. Yamashita had the musical/expressive fire/passion and insane transcriptions he had. Both were amazing players for their time, but today we have many far superior players purely in technique and overall coordination, especially classical where I really know what I’m talking about

Linked below here are some examples you can listen to of some of the best players today. If you’re curious I can also pm you some of my clips, but prefer to stay more anonymous on here. You’ll see the level of accuracy, coordinate and cleanliness of the players below was something not remotely in the cards for Yamashita’s hands. He was sloppy by today’s standards. The last link of these on Instagram is my teacher











https://www.instagram.com/p/BV6Sd0GARyF/?igsh=MXJmaDM2NTRkc3Zs

First of thanks for hipping me into some players I want aware of.

And yes I’d very much would like for you to send me some of your links in pm.

Back to the subject, all amazing technicians you showed but none with the fire of Yamashita.
Yes by comparison he is sloppy.
But for me I can let that go. Heck I like Jimmy Page because of it.

As for his sound? I love what he does, unlike all the guys here he varies his tone between passages a lot more.

As for the idea that improvisation yields only a few kernels of greatness the rest is basically searching….

https://youtu.be/dkwvXK7bJqc?si=OVO80-4XIZz4O3lF

https://youtu.be/dkwvXK7bJqc?si=OVO80-4XIZz4O3lF

 

[braintheory]

First of thanks for hipping me into some players I want aware of.

And yes I’d very much would like for you to send me some of your links in pm.

Back to the subject, all amazing technicians you showed but none with the fire of Yamashita.
Yes by comparison he is sloppy.
But for me I can let that go. Heck I like Jimmy Page because of it.

As for his sound? I love what he does, unlike all the guys here he varies his tone between passages a lot more.

As for the idea that improvisation yields only a few kernels of greatness the rest is basically searching….

No problem, I'm always happy to share. I hope also you saw the last instagram vid of my teacher. He's pretty incredible

I'll send you them later. I also btw just got into the semi-finals of a competition in Florida happening in a few weeks. I'm nowhere near those guy's level I showed you, not even close (they're some of the best in the world), but I'm working on my improvements to do what I can

I agree, in terms of fire and musicality Yamashita smokes them, he's always been one of my favorites in that regard, no doubt about it. None of those guys I showed you are players I like at all musically/emotionally at all, which is also exactly the point I've been trying to make this whole time. Some players have amazing technique, some have amazing feeling, I haven't heard anyone yet who's 10/10 at both. I'd love to hear it and that's exactly the type of player I aspire to be, but like anyone else have my share of strengths and weaknesses in my playing and right now I'm decent at best by today's standards. Ultimately I also want to hear the player with the most fire and feeling, but that wasn't the point of this discussion. I like Jimmy Page a lot too

Yamashita is known for a much wider range of tone color like Bream. This is true and I love that about him, but there are other players outside the guys I showed that also are also quite good there. Yamashita is one of the best in color range, but his default tone is generally imo clacky/naily/rough, by classical standards rarely beautiful or refined in tone. He's often used as an example of a player with not as good tone. There are also other players I love with amazing musicality besides Yamashita btw. My personal favorite is Marcin Dylla. The videos don't do him justice, but in person his sense of touch and how he shapes his phrases is really something else

I'll give those vids a listen. Thanks for sending them. I think you sent the same one twice?

 

[Thumbpicker]

Well, historically that would be me. So, by all means please enlighten.

So you played other people's music aka covers.

And your point?

Composition (writing your own music) is just one skill of many in terms of potential skills a musician may possess. So basically it does not make you better or worse than other musicians if you write your own music just different. I could write music if wanted to but I don't enjoy doing it and don't find it rewarding therefore I don't.

Who said that?


You really went out of your way to be offended and couldn't be bothered to read the very first sentence of the OP?

Well you called it a downfall which is negative...

Also re: the first sentence... Saying you don't mean it as an insult and then delivering negativity doesn't negate the insult... For example, I could say something like "I don't mean this as an insult but you have a f'n enormous nose/arse etc lady..." Would you still be insulted if I said that despite prefacing with I don't mean it as an insult? I reckon you would ?

 

[NowYou'rePlayingWithPower]

So you played other people's music aka covers.


Composition (writing your own music) is just one skill of many in terms of potential skills a musician may possess. So basically it does not make you better or worse than other musicians if you write your own music just different. I could write music if wanted to but I don't enjoy doing it and don't find it rewarding therefore I don't.


Well you called it a downfall which is negative...

Also re: the first sentence... Saying you don't mean it as an insult and then delivering negativity doesn't negate the insult... For example, I could say something like "I don't mean this as an insult but you have a f'n enormous nose/arse etc lady..." Would you still be insulted if I said that despite prefacing with I don't mean it as an insult? I reckon you would ?

The last time I played note for note covers was in middle school, and that includes orchestra. Playing an original composition that you were involved in the creation of is hardly the same thing as playing November Rain or Stairway over and over again on youtube. It's obvious that you missed the point or are simply trying to look for slights where there aren't. The world has mostly moved on from fake outrage, maybe try joining in instead of trying to nitpick and take offense as if things were directed specifically to you. You do that a lot for some reason. It's okay to put your ego aside ya know and stop trying to twist other's words to make it as if you're somehow clever enough to get away with it.

My post wasn't an insult and just because you feel like it was doesn't make it so. I was attempting to highlight that playing covers isn't bad, it's that playing only covers makes no sense to me when a person gets to a level of musician. What was the purpose? It doesn't matter if they enjoy it (which is completely fine), they aren't evolving it (which is completely true). I don't take offense to strangers enough to care what they think. In fact, I am often referred to as a pawg, so you're probably not far off on the ass part. Though not enormous, butt medium/medium light from what I'm told.

So, since you claim to only play covers, why? Why did you spend so much time learning something only to not craft with it? Why does that make you happy and why do you think the world cares?

 

[Thumbpicker]

So, since you claim to only play covers, why? Why did you spend so much time learning something only to not craft with it? Why does that make you happy and why do you think the world cares?

I don't think the world cares. Which is one of the reasons I can't be arsed writing original music. I learn various "pieces" like a classical pianist learns "pieces"... For the challenge of learning them, saying "I can play that"... recording it for posterity... It's a bit like doing a jigsaw puzzle and you get to keep the completed puzzle at the end. However I'll often listen to many different versions of the same "standard" if you want to put it that way and cherry pick the best bits sometimes from various versions. Work out the most efficient fingerings and transitions between chords... learn all the other parts in the song eg. the bass, drums, keyboard parts... record them... Put together the entire track myself without session musicians... even sing on them (badly but in tune) sometimes. Also play the stuff I play is solo guitar anyway so you don't even need other instruments most of the time - but they can be a nice to have depending on the track. Also sometimes I will learn various popular tracks and reproduce them for just for the fun of it. Eg. JJ Cale tracks, Jerry Reed Tracks, The Shadows etc...

Do I do it for money or for other people.... Absolutely not. I get nothing for it at all. The only reason I put it on Youtube is for the same reason an artist might hang a painting in a gallery. It'd be a shame if no-one else saw it and enjoy it... that's about the only reason. Do I really care if people enjoy it or not though? not really. I don't really care what they experience. It's a bit like when I kicked my toe as a kid and my Dad used to say "I didn't feel a thing". You don't care what other people experience really - you're not them.

Why do I do it at all? because it's entertainment like television. Ultimately meaningless but kills time.

 

[DanTravis62]

Do I do it for money or for other people.... Absolutely not. I get nothing for it at all. The only reason I put it on Youtube is for the same reason an artist might hang a painting in a gallery. It'd be a shame if no-one else saw it... that's about the only reason.

I feel like I have to say - I don't have anything against covers (I was in a boomer cover band until recently) because you took an unreasonable amount of offense to the OP post - I just think it's a wildly different skillset

But wouldn't it more be like "copying a famous master artists original painting and hanging it in a gallery" for people to see?

 

[Thumbpicker]

But wouldn't it more be like "copying a famous master artists original painting and hanging it in a gallery" for people to see?

Maybe but wouldn't you say that about a symphony orchestra as well. Or a jazz musican that plays "standards".

Some of it is about interpretation and execution of the piece of music.

Also she said I took offence - I never said I took offence. I don't really give a shit at all. I am only having an intellectual argument with her about what a musician is and what is valuable to various musicians. ie. what is valuable is different things to different people.

 

[NowYou'rePlayingWithPower]

about what a musician is and what is valuable to various musicians. ie. what is valuable is different things to different people.

This is what I'm trying to ascertain. It's not that I find it wrong, it's that I don't understand the investment.

 

[DanTravis62]

Maybe but wouldn't you say that about a symphony orchestra as well. Or a jazz musican that plays "standards".

Some of it is about interpretation and execution of the piece of music.

I certainly would say that - I think being a "technician" is one side of being a musician and being creative is another separate skill set, with a little bit of overlap

The issue is the amount of creative expression inherent to "interpretation" and "execution" is pretty limited, obviously, in comparison to actually composing and creating

I mean, unless youre being a contrarian because you value that larger amount of creative expression more, and don't value the technical aspects as much - then it would certainly make sense why that dichotomy causes cognitive dissonance

 

[NowYou'rePlayingWithPower]

I really wasn't trying to cause drama, I swear Just interested in the motivations and perspectives on why people are content. Feel like I've learned that some are and others seem to view it as a means of $ or hobby and not necessarily about being content or happy with doing it. Which is fine and all the power to them. I feel like there are different classes in tone chasers and movers and shakers. Even if the latter leads nowhere. Some appear to be both. I just personally couldn't do the former solely, is all.

 

[Thumbpicker]

The issue is the amount of creative expression inherent to "interpretation" and "execution" is pretty limited, obviously, in comparison to actually composing and creating

I mean, unless you're being a contrarian because you value that larger amount of creative expression more, and don't value the technical aspects as much - then it would certainly make sense why that dichotomy causes cognitive dissonance

I look at this as an instrumentalist. As an instrumentalist I don't really like words or songs as much as the music itself. So a lot of people come at this from creating songs and I don't really like "songs".

As an instrumentalist you can cherry pick the best melodies and play them as a solo guitar piece. There are musicians that tour the US playing as a solo guitarist and playing other people's melodies as solo guitar pieces.

As for writing your own stuff as greater creative expression... well maybe for the song writer but there are lot of highly shithouse song writers and I don't feel like joining them. Most of today's music doesn't even count as music to me it's that bad. I don't get as much satisfaction from writing bad music just so I can say I wrote it.

Again maybe that sounds like I'm angry or something... but I'm not. It's just what I think that's all.

 

[DanTravis62]

I really wasn't trying to cause drama, I swear Just interested in the motivations and perspectives on why people are content. Feel like I've learned that some are and others seem to view it as a means of $ or hobby and not necessarily about being content or happy with doing it. Which is fine and all the power to them. I feel like there are different classes in tone chasers and movers and shakers. Even if the latter leads nowhere. Some appear to be both. I just personally couldn't do the former solely, is all.

I've been a lifetime "originals" guy, and the last couple years dipped a toe into the sort of thing velcro and others do - that is, high paying cover gigs at clubs, theatres, weddings, events, wineries etc

And it's a sore spot with covers guitarists in other bands that I talk to like 99% of the time - "Oh, so you toured in an original band, so you think youre better than me huh?"

"No dude I was just explaining that I just started doing the covers thing, I was doing originals before, jesus christ put the gun away"

I think it's because of genre, mostly - in pop, blues, country, (and jazz and orchestra, as thumbpicker mentioned) authenticity and legitimacy aren't important and a dividing line like they are in rock and metal

 

[Thumbpicker]

it's that I don't understand the investment.

When you have nothing left in life the seemingly unimportant things become what fills it. When I was working I had no time to learn how to play the guitar properly. When I retired in my late 40s I had to do something to challenge my brain - something that I always admired but didn't have the time to invest in it. So that's why I do it. Without it what else would I do - you can only watch so much Netflix and go on so many motorcycle rides.

At least I have something semi-cerebral to do. Some people retire and are completely lost and have no hobbies or interests at all.

 

[NowYou'rePlayingWithPower]

When you have nothing left in life the seemingly unimportant things become what fills it.

Uhhhhh.... What?
Hobby would have also been an acceptable answer.

 

[Thumbpicker]

Uhhhhh.... What?
Hobby would have also been an acceptable answer.

Hobby with the vain hope that it might be something more one day but therapy really. Keeps me alive.

It's actually a rather profound answer - I hope you never have to truly understand it in your own life. However most things in life are just a distraction beween birth and death and don't mean much.

 

[NowYou'rePlayingWithPower]

Hobby with the vain hope that it might be something more one day but therapy really. Keeps me alive.

It's actually a rather profound answer - I hope you never have to truly understand it in your own life. However most things in life are just a distraction beween birth and death and don't mean much.

Therapy works and is a good answer, tbh.
This may come as a surprise to you, but read the last post on the first page of this thread.
It may bring some light to part of my perspective on all of this.
Not sure that I agree that life doesn't mean much.
It means as much as someone is willing to make it, imo.
Personally, I feel that striving for more than settling keeps the heart beating. At least for me.
Thanks for your insight and perspective!

 

[SFW]

While I write and record my own music, I have come to realize that it is just for me. I am proud of all of the songs that I have written with various bands over the years... but no one really cares...lol!

I've pretty much only played original music for the past 20 years. The scene here in Houston is DEAD. And what little scene there was, COVID killed that dead. A year or so ago, I was asked to play in a Bush tribute band. I figured, what the hell. I wasn't doing anything else. We've done a hand full of shows. I've actually made money at all of them. lol! People actually come to those shows. And have fun and sing along. I find it fun to dial in the more atmospheric tones that are in the background of some of their new music. It's a fun gig. I don't have to argue with the bass player about how he thinks my riff should go... or if we should "modulate" the key halfway through the song.

I still write and am working on a solo thing that I may or may not release at some point.... but I am very aware that absolutely no one else gives a flying fuck about it.

 

[SpiderWars]

You really went out of your way to be offended and couldn't be bothered to read the very first sentence of the OP?

FWIW, it was probably just the first 5 words. Whenever someone says “in all due respect” you know some sort of veiled disrespect is coming. So when you open with “not meant as a slight” then everyone’s mind instantly thinks “ this IS a slight”.

So even if it truly wasn’t meant as a slight it probably came off that way to a lot of people. But that’s also what gets a thread some traction. You need a little ‘hot take/clickbait’ these days.

 

[stephen sawall]

While I write and record my own music, I have come to realize that it is just for me. I am proud of all of the songs that I have written with various bands over the years... but no one really cares...lol!

I've pretty much only played original music for the past 20 years. The scene here in Houston is DEAD. And what little scene there was, COVID killed that dead. A year or so ago, I was asked to play in a Bush tribute band. I figured, what the hell. I wasn't doing anything else. We've done a hand full of shows. I've actually made money at all of them. lol! People actually come to those shows. And have fun and sing along. I find it fun to dial in the more atmospheric tones that are in the background of some of their new music. It's a fun gig. I don't have to argue with the bass player about how he thinks my riff should go... or if we should "modulate" the key halfway through the song.

I still write and am working on a solo thing that I may or may not release at some point.... but I am very aware that absolutely no one else gives a flying fuck about it.

Do you make your music public ?

I am not currently. But 20 -25 years ago my stuff was all public for free. It was getting a lot of downloads. In China alone it getting about 150 thousand downloads daily for a few years. China was about half the downloads worldwide.

My bass player is a comedian for a living. He does small tours in the States. He has a radio show that does okay. He was a regular on radio program that was heard by millions a few years ago.

He wants us to do everything live via the internet on various formats. The good, bad and ugly. All of it. All the music is free. We would make money off the platform and merchandise. He believes we could do it full time for a living. He has a few decades of experience.
If it is out there it has a much better chance.