Aeroic, Did You Wire Up The AxeFx/M4 yet?

The more and more I read this thread, the more and more happy I am that I don't use rack equipment...

Head. Cab. Couple of pedals. Footswitch. Done. :rock:

And Eric is gonna yell at me in 3.....

2....

1....

:lol: :LOL:
 
Dude....I've had ground loop issues w/ pedals and such too. It's not at ALL a "rack issue." It's a grounding issue...and having one peice of gear do your grounding. And I'd much rather go through this, and have no issues whatsoever. Good comment here...Dave uses them in ALL rig's he builds. Not all rig's he builds are 100% rack either. Look at Linkin Park's rig. They use a lot of pedals, a couple RM4's, and a couple RT2/50's. That's really not that different than guitar -> head w/ pedals in the loop.

Eric
 
RACKSYSTEMS":28lk7w6n said:
isolation transformers is the proper audio way to do things. You can't get the rig quit with out them. Cutting the shield although might work in a pro audio installation at line level it never works in a guitar rig. Not only do you need isos but you need to ground all the returns of your gcx. You also need to internally lift the ground from chassis on you gcx . By doing this the axefx is the main ground point. Your vht also has the ability to lift circuit from chassis ground. This kind of set up is extremely hard to get right and very quiet. Now a lot of guys put band aids on there noise with a Decimator but I rarely ever use one for any pro rig at all in fact maybe never. Also for the record i use isos in every rig that I build every last one.
Wow, I never thought in a million years that I would ever hear a well respected audio pro like yourself make the statement that iso's are the proper way to do things. To even think that a floating audio connection has anywhere near the same properties as a hard-wired audio connection is fucking comical at best. And to come out in public and state such bullshit is a fucking insult to true pros that understand. I'm not going to get into a who's got the bigger dick argument because I don't give a shit, and it's obvious from your reputation that you're the winner. However, for the sake of protecting guys out there that don't understand, I will state that the degree that I have, the 12+ certifications that I renew every year, and the 20+ years of experience that I have all prove many different laws, and one of those laws is isos are never the proper way to fix anything when your 1st option could be physical hard-wire.

Another baffling statement is that lifting the shield never works in a guitar rig. Really? That's funny, the M4's ground lift does nothing more than lift the shield, and it works amazingly well. Same with a 3+'s ground lift jack. It's also worked amazingly well in the past on Triaxis, MP-1's, JMP's, and so many others I can't even remember.

Now, you have built dozens & dozens, if not hundreds of elaborate guitar rigs, all of which you stated needed isos. I have built 20+ guitar rigs, all very elaborate as well, but why is that I have never once had to use an iso? Or 'ground all the returns' of any GCX? Or 'internally lift the ground from chassis' on any GCX? I know why, and that is because I have spend many hours of personal time tracking down the true cause of the buzzes, and then fixing them. I play with guitar rigs as a hobby, so I can afford to spend countless hours tweaking and futzing with problems. You however can't afford to spend hours of personal time on a rig because no one could afford the bill. So what do you do? Slap some isos in there and move on. So that being said, for sake of respect for your own professionalism, and for the sake of respecting other true pros that understand what you're doing, don't play like you're fixing the problem when all you're really doing is throwing on a band-aid, saving them a shitload of money, and then playing to them that the problem is truly fixed.
 
jmgman69":24jmrd6e said:
:shocked: Boy this got ugly :no: Eric,it's all your fault man!!!! :lol: :LOL:

Thanks Jason! All I do is try to give Dave's side of it, because we've had massive discussions regarding this fact. Dave lays it out very nicely, and wow...

Anyways...I'm bowing out of this flame war. I have upmost respect to Dave Friedman, and know countless other guitar players do. If it's good enough for Peter Thorn, Slash, EVH, Steve Vai, etc., then it's good enough for me!!! Hell it's good enough for Brad, I know it's gonna rock out for me :)

Eric
 
aeroic":37jplmmr said:
jmgman69":37jplmmr said:
:shocked: Boy this got ugly :no: Eric,it's all your fault man!!!! :lol: :LOL:

Thanks Jason! All I do is try to give Dave's side of it, because we've had massive discussions regarding this fact. Dave lays it out very nicely, and wow...

Anyways...I'm bowing out of this flame war. I have upmost respect to Dave Friedman, and know countless other guitar players do. If it's good enough for Peter Thorn, Slash, EVH, Steve Vai, etc., then it's good enough for me!!! Hell it's good enough for Brad, I know it's gonna rock out for me :)

Eric

No flame war, every big name guy knows who Dave F is and his phone rings with Eddie on the other side for crying out loud. :thumbsup: The dude knows tone and rigs, cant dispute that. Can things be done different ways, sure but I will and have thrown my lot in with Racksystems and I am swimming in good company (Eric included).

Brad
 
rareguitar":2xzrkgod said:
aeroic":2xzrkgod said:
jmgman69":2xzrkgod said:
:shocked: Boy this got ugly :no: Eric,it's all your fault man!!!! :lol: :LOL:

Thanks Jason! All I do is try to give Dave's side of it, because we've had massive discussions regarding this fact. Dave lays it out very nicely, and wow...

Anyways...I'm bowing out of this flame war. I have upmost respect to Dave Friedman, and know countless other guitar players do. If it's good enough for Peter Thorn, Slash, EVH, Steve Vai, etc., then it's good enough for me!!! Hell it's good enough for Brad, I know it's gonna rock out for me :)

Eric

No flame war, every big name guy knows who Dave F is and his phone rings with Eddie on the other side for crying out loud. :thumbsup: The dude knows tone and rigs, cant dispute that. Can things be done different ways, sure but I will and have thrown my lot in with Racksystems and I am swimming in good company (Eric included).

Brad
I like Dave!!!! :rock:
 
I have nothing against Dave's work, in fact I believe he's the best. His wiring is like is like artwork! No hard feelings, and no flame war either..

However, I will definitely rattle the cage, but only to point out a statement that flies in the face of thousands of well educated audio professionals. What's next? Dave telling us that 800pf per foot guitar cable is actually great stuff? Worst part is, you can bet your ass there'd be a handful of guys immediately ordering that shit.

When your following is as big as Dave's, there's a responsibility that comes with that. Being a technician and not an artist bears a responsibility to accuracy & clarity. Facts and your opinion are two different things. Dave does NOT 'lay it out very nicely'. He's rather vague, elusive, and in this case, inaccurate with the facts. I can understand though, he's a mega busy guy.



To try and get the thread back on track:

One thing that many overlook, is the quality of AC. From reading just about every one of Dave's sweet picture posts, his clients are touring professionals. Professionals who's AC requirements are detailed and documented in there rider, and usually signed off on as part of there contract. That being said, 9 outta 10 times, there's a decent production company hired who's tapping into a well proven 3-phase disconnect that is certainly stable and safe. So..

With guys like Eric & Brad, they're not touring guys. Which means they'll be playing clubs, county fairs, and weddings, all places that are infamous for horrible power. I can name 7 or 8 well known clubs & ballrooms in Chicago alone that are still operating with 3phase Delta, or hi-leg as some call it. The voltage imbalance alone will cause audio issues, let alone the capacitance & inductance issues. One club still uses there old hard-wired 1980's split snake because whenever a fancy tour rolls in with a transformer isolated snake, it makes everything worse. I don't care if your rig is built buy Dave, Bob, or Jesus himself, it's gonna be problematic. Even the mega expensive Furman AR-PRO's don't stand a chance, the buzz gets so bad with those you can practically see it!

Another horrible common problem is using a Single-phase distro when tied into a 3-phase panel. The only option is to double load one of the legs, forcing the neutral to handle twice the current it's supposed to be offloading. It's extremely illegal, but done ALL THE TIME. It's almost never a problem with stuff like fry pots, motors, and that type of shit, but holy shit does it suck for audio gear, especially when the lighting company starts floading the stage with light and the neutrel starts getting warm.

One final note, if transformer isos are so great, and so inexpensive, then why doesn't Fractal, or any other company just put them in from the start? It doesn't take someone with a degree or even road experience to learn this stuff. All it takes is few minutes on the internet, or even a couple calls to Klark Teknik or BSS. Those two companies alone are well known for being about the best you can buy. Every piece of gear they sell does NOT come transformer isolated as standard, but rather as an option. Why? Because only in extreme cases do they ever want you to opt for the isos.

Anyway, no hard feelings or flaming necessary. Brad is right, there's many ways to do things. For the sake of the guys that don't understand, I just wanted to share real world tour experiences that prove the audio world is not always as cut & dry as a few posts on the internet can make it seem.
 
And back to the Topic:

Ok Eric so what is your take so far on the Axe-Fx? I see alot of stuff on you tube but I am kinda old school on amps and tubes. So any comments on amp sounds and effect sounds? I dont see how you get the harmonic squeals and natural tube sounds from it. So what ya got? How is the response and amp feel ? How is the Harmony section compared to an Eventide H3000 or higher? I like the Eventide H3500 for Steve Vai ish ness.
:confused:
 
jlbaxe":11dybktb said:
And back to the Topic:

Ok Eric so what is your take so far on the Axe-Fx? I see alot of stuff on you tube but I am kinda old school on amps and tubes. So any comments on amp sounds and effect sounds? I dont see how you get the harmonic squeals and natural tube sounds from it. So what ya got? How is the response and amp feel ? How is the Harmony section compared to an Eventide H3000 or higher? I like the Eventide H3500 for Steve Vai ish ness.
:confused:

It's really good at everything what it does. I still personally prefer a lot of my tones for ampwise stuff for me with my M4, but damn the sim are really good.

Here's a set of clips that was done direct from AxeFX into my MOTU 896 digital IN.

The first doubled clip is a highly tweaked heavy tone by me. The rest are presets. Don't mind all my mistakes....:)

http://www.music-boulevard.org/mp3/axefx_test.mp3

Enjoy!
 
Ok lets take a simple look at something. Say you have 2 amps and a A/B box your solution for the ground loop that happens is? There are 3 options one will not work. The other works but has questionable performance and the third is perfectly quiet. So please let me know how you would deal with this. Also let me correct you the ground lift switch on the Egnater lifts circuit from chassis. So does the ground lift on many Boogie products etc. Also most manufactures don't put iso's in because of the cost of them but some do take for instance Sennheiser wirelesses or Audio Technica wirelesses etc etc. Also John Suhr must be a hack for putting isos in his new mini mix 2. Not to mention Jensen transformers must not know what they are doing either in all there white papers. So please answer the first ?
 
aeroic":194nqagu said:
muudrock":194nqagu said:
So Eric, since your rig is getting sent to Mr Friedman,



Your going to send my your Friedman modded modules to check out, Right??? :lol: :LOL: :D :D ;)

LOL. You...richidie...and 3 mile stone :)

I don't mind lending them out though. :)

Eric


Cool dude, but I'm just going to go for it. I called Dave today but he must have been busy. I'll be sending him my EG3/4 to turn into a Custom 45. Probably have the buffer on my Axxess GRX4 fixed. I might be asking about a mod to my SL too.
 
3 Mile Stone":xglc6j5r said:
aeroic":xglc6j5r said:
muudrock":xglc6j5r said:
So Eric, since your rig is getting sent to Mr Friedman,



Your going to send my your Friedman modded modules to check out, Right??? :lol: :LOL: :D :D ;)

LOL. You...richidie...and 3 mile stone :)

I don't mind lending them out though. :)

Eric


Cool dude, but I'm just going to go for it. I called Dave today but he must have been busy. I'll be sending him my EG3/4 to turn into a Custom 45. Probably have the buffer on my Axxess GRX4 fixed. I might be asking about a mod to my SL too.

Totally get the Brown Eye mod...that'd be AWESOME for you!!! That and the Custom 45 :)

Eric
 
Well, I fired up the rig last night. With just the M4 going through the dry cab, I hear a good healthy ground loop. I had nothing coming out of the wet stereo cabs because currently, the Axe doesn't have any patches on it that have an FX Loop block in it so nothing was being fed to the outputs.

I've got work to do.

On another note, here's something that seems odd to me though. Even if you put washers between the rack unit and rails, isn't there a chance that the shaft of the screw that passes through the hole in the rack ear (calm down Eric! :D ), will touch the rack unit's face plate and still ground it to the rails? I mean with all the concern of rack units being space enough so that they don't touch and isolation and all this other stuff, how realistic is it to think that no rack unit will make any contact with the rails at all?

Dave
 
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