Cab and speaker recommendations (need a huge sound at low volumes)

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Tommy Von Voigt

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Hey all, I think I may have a pair of 4x12s on my hands that I just simply do not like:

• 1982 Marshall JCM800 slant, w/ the original G12-65 quad. This cab is very dark. I was always puzzled as to why I've seen so many people refer to these speakers as being dark, but I've been experimenting with other heads and preamps and power amps, and lo and behold, they were right. It's dark, and also maybe kind of a little boxy sounding. And it sounds small at low volumes.

• 1973 Marshall straight cab, w/ brand new Scumback M75-LDs (with his break in process). Basically, everything seems to sound terrible in this cab. Prior to the Scumbacks, the cab still had the original quad of G12-H30s, with the 55hz cones. It was horrific. The Scumbacks are a little bit better, for sure, but I think I'm asking them to do the impossible here. That, or this cab is a lemon!


I'm pretty frustrated, and not really sure what the problem is...wrong speakers? Wrong cabs? The fact that I'm playing at very low volumes in Madison Square Living Room?

They also seem to sound terrible together, which is a BIG problem, since I'm trying to put together a stereo rack rig.

I'd like to know what is out there that can give me a huge, open sound, at low volumes, and be very balanced, tight, etc. And whatever it is, I'll need two of them.

What should I look into? Different 4x12s? 2x12s? Open back? Ported? Let's put everything on the table here. Same goes for the speakers.

If it helps, I'm going for that super polished 80s rock, pop and metal sound. Super produced, and super huge. I'm currently toying with a Fryette 2502, a Synergy 2502 w/ SLO module, a Ceriatone King Kong 50, and a 68 Plexi with Hopkins Pandora mod. At low volumes, I can get the King Kong and the Plexi to sound acceptable through that slant cab, with some careful EQing. I can't get anything to sound good with the straight cab, and the Synergy w/ SLO module and the Fryette are sounding terrible with either cab. The King Kong and the Plexi of course both kill at stage volumes, (through G12T-75 4x12s, believe it or not), but that doesn't really help me much here.

The plan is to achieve my sound at "please don't call the police" volumes and even lower. But, at gigs or rehearsals (and through different cabs), I could crank up the Fryette and get some serious volume.
 
Have you considered using IR's and a load box? There are a lot of options out right now that can get you a huge sound at no or whisper volumes and you can try out a virtually unlimited amount of speakers.
 
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japetus said:
Have you considered using IR's and a load box? There are a lot of options out right now that can get you a huge sound at no or whisper volumes and you can try out a virtually unlimited amount of speakers.
Click to expand...

I've got a Suhr Reactive Load (non IR version), and I'm doing all of the tracking for my new record using a head right into that, into a Babyface Pro, into Logic, using STL Libra and a bunch of killer sounding IRs from York Audio. But while the results of that are killer (especially with tight quad tracks for everything), it's a total letdown for just jamming at home. That's what I've found, anyway. And it doesn't help me really in any way in terms of dialing in a rig for live use. I'm open to suggestions here, if I'm just going about that all wrong!
 
Rdodson said:
Those Scumbacks are exactly like the G12-65s.

Put a pair of V30s on the bottom and you’ll be set. Those really don’t need any volume to get going.
Click to expand...

You know what's funny is, I bought those Scumbacks specifically because they are the closest he's got to the G12-65. And yet, these two cabs couldn't sound more different if they tried! I don't know why...maybe brand new speakers compared to 39 year old speakers? The slant cab vs. straight cab?

Are you thinking I'm basically fighting an uphill battle with these, since I can't really give them any volume at home?

I've certainly given some thought to V30s...I may need to find a V30 cab to try out...
 
Scumbacks are FANTASTIC, I’m a total fanboy it is all I use, but they need volume.

The only amps I have that don’t have Scumbacks in them are my Katana 100w combo (I dig that speaker, but it sounds worse the louder it gets) and my Fender Deluxe Reverb - and I hate that Jensen.
 
Tommy Von Voigt said:
Hey all, I think I may have a pair of 4x12s on my hands that I just simply do not like:

• 1982 Marshall JCM800 slant, w/ the original G12-65 quad. This cab is very dark. I was always puzzled as to why I've seen so many people refer to these speakers as being dark, but I've been experimenting with other heads and preamps and power amps, and lo and behold, they were right. It's dark, and also maybe kind of a little boxy sounding. And it sounds small at low volumes.

• 1973 Marshall straight cab, w/ brand new Scumback M75-LDs (with his break in process). Basically, everything seems to sound terrible in this cab. Prior to the Scumbacks, the cab still had the original quad of G12-H30s, with the 55hz cones. It was horrific. The Scumbacks are a little bit better, for sure, but I think I'm asking them to do the impossible here. That, or this cab is a lemon!


I'm pretty frustrated, and not really sure what the problem is...wrong speakers? Wrong cabs? The fact that I'm playing at very low volumes in Madison Square Living Room?

They also seem to sound terrible together, which is a BIG problem, since I'm trying to put together a stereo rack rig.

I'd like to know what is out there that can give me a huge, open sound, at low volumes, and be very balanced, tight, etc. And whatever it is, I'll need two of them.

What should I look into? Different 4x12s? 2x12s? Open back? Ported? Let's put everything on the table here. Same goes for the speakers.

If it helps, I'm going for that super polished 80s rock, pop and metal sound. Super produced, and super huge. I'm currently toying with a Fryette 2502, a Synergy 2502 w/ SLO module, a Ceriatone King Kong 50, and a 68 Plexi with Hopkins Pandora mod. At low volumes, I can get the King Kong and the Plexi to sound acceptable through that slant cab, with some careful EQing. I can't get anything to sound good with the straight cab, and the Synergy w/ SLO module and the Fryette are sounding terrible with either cab. The King Kong and the Plexi of course both kill at stage volumes, (through G12T-75 4x12s, believe it or not), but that doesn't really help me much here.

The plan is to achieve my sound at "please don't call the police" volumes and even lower. But, at gigs or rehearsals (and through different cabs), I could crank up the Fryette and get some serious volume.
Click to expand...
Those are some really dark Scumbacks. His normal M75's are dark - your model is considerably darker still. I'd go for a vertical, slant 2x12 with a G12M up top and a G12H or V30 down below.
 
Are you sure there’s nothing wrong with the wiring? G12-65s have a relaxed top end, but I wouldn’t classify them as dark. Seems like something’s wrong there.
 
V30s and a low pass filter , take some the high mids out . Run the treble a little high . Works for my rig !
 
Those cabs should sound excellent; unless the speakers are totally shot. Sure they sound better loud but that's just common sense. I have a 79 slant with 65s and a 72 with original Pulsonics and they both sound killer low, med and high volume. Not sure what to say as far as what's going on with those cabs. Have you ever opened them up and re tightened the wood screws throughout? Those older cabs can really have super loose screws over time. Usually more evident at high volume but it's worth a try.
 
Medium size magnet speakers with low efficiency tend to sound woofy in low volumes....
You pick them cause they are quiet, but eventually they need volume to deliver....
You need some bigger efficiency speakers for low volumes....and an amp with an amazingly linear master volume....
 
Worth noting G12-65's come in various flavours - the bass cone for example doesn't sound good at all to my ear for guitar.
 
Mr. Willy said:
Are you sure there’s nothing wrong with the wiring? G12-65s have a relaxed top end, but I wouldn’t classify them as dark. Seems like something’s wrong there.
Click to expand...

Honestly I'm willing to consider anything at this point. I did wire both of them myself, using 14 gauge speaker wire. I also rewired the 82 from 4ohm to 16ohm (didn't change the sound much at all, TBH, just made it a hair quieter to my ears).

I used the diagram from the Scumback site for both cabs, and looked over what I was doing dozens of times during the process, so I'm pretty sure I didn't good it up somehow. But I'll check them both again and see.
 
Fordman65 said:
Using a 4x12 at whisper low volume and expecting it to sound good (especially with a tube amp) is like taking a Toyota Corolla to the dragstrip and wondering why you didn't finish 1st.
Click to expand...

I totally hear you. I'm just starting with what I have, and finding the pieces that aren't working along the way.

10 years ago, my band at the time was gigging with 4 full stacks and 2 8x10s. No joke. ALL ON. It was glorious lunacy. I've been scaling down further and further over the years, and living in an apartment now and gigging in NYC has changed the game for me considerably. I'm now at the point where I'm looking into 2x12s. The Tommy from 10 years ago would think I was replaced by an alien 😆
 
Rdodson said:
Scumbacks are FANTASTIC, I’m a total fanboy it is all I use, but they need volume.

The only amps I have that don’t have Scumbacks in them are my Katana 100w combo (I dig that speaker, but it sounds worse the louder it gets) and my Fender Deluxe Reverb - and I hate that Jensen.
Click to expand...

I'll say this, they were a night and day difference from the G12H30 55hz quad that WAS in the cab. My gut tells me that, in the right circumstances, with some volume behind them, the Scumbacks will probably kill. I just don't think my circumstances are giving these speakers a fair shake, at all. I'd be curious to hear them split across a pair of open back 2x12s, though...
 
Racerxrated said:
Those cabs should sound excellent; unless the speakers are totally shot. Sure they sound better loud but that's just common sense. I have a 79 slant with 65s and a 72 with original Pulsonics and they both sound killer low, med and high volume. Not sure what to say as far as what's going on with those cabs. Have you ever opened them up and re tightened the wood screws throughout? Those older cabs can really have super loose screws over time. Usually more evident at high volume but it's worth a try.
Click to expand...

Good catch, and yes, I did make sure to tighten down every single screw in both cabs (not the speakers themselves, of course). I was suspicious that the original G12H30 quad in the 73 cab had been pummeled into submission, which was sad, since they look like they are in great shape. That's why I tried the Scumbacks. Turns out, I think it may be the perfect storm of the wrong cab choice and the wrong speaker choice for my volume needs.

With the 82 cab, it is possible they are worn out. I don't know the history of that cab, but it has a band logo stenciled on the top, so for all I know it could have been toured heavily. And it was rewired at some point to 4ohm, which I've since changed. So, it's been around the block.

The thing is, I've been in one band or another since 1998. I've had so much gear, and so many 4x12s. And while I've done my fair share of cranking these things up at rehearsal spaces and on stages around the country, I've also heard plenty of 4x12s at super low volumes. There is something going on with this current situation that just is wrong, wrong, wrong. I'm sure my living room is far from ideal, acoustically, but I've also rehearsed in plenty of metal walled storage units way back in the day. That's about as far from ideal as it gets.

I just keep thinking it's the combination of the volume I'm trying to play at, these particular cabs, and these particular speaker choices. It seems to be a recipe that just does NOT work. The two cabs couldn't sound more different if they tried, and they sound terrible together.
 
ZEN Amps said:
Worth noting G12-65's come in various flavours - the bass cone for example doesn't sound good at all to my ear for guitar.
Click to expand...

Here's the details on this particular quad of G12-65s:

• “T3054” on frames
• “CQ4” date code on all 4 frames (March 4th, 1982)
 
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