Do you think modelers will get there in the next 10 years?

[RevDrucifer]

Makes you wonder why he didn't just make it go Yooooow in the first place. Thing that kills me with Fractal is the fact you spend
big bucks for a new unit and then within weeks you start getting updates that have notes like:
[improves this]
[fixes errors with that]
[eliminates problems with this]
And then this keeps going on every couple of weeks for the life of the product.

And now Cygnus is being touted as a major paradigm shift in Fractal performance.

And yet, like @ZEN Amps said above, 10 years ago they were marketing them as already 100% accurate.

You can put that spin on a ton of gear. How many different Dual Recs has Mesa released? How many variants of the 5150 have their been between Peavey and EVH? All were meant to be an improvement on the previous version. Technology is always improving and Cliff doesn’t stop working. Shit, I listen to mixes I did years ago when I first started recording and wished I still had the sessions available to re-mix because I’ve learned a LOT since then. Same thing with pretty much everything I’ve ever built with my own hands.

I don’t get into the whole “realer” thing. How closely the AxeFX replicates an actual amp isn’t a factor for me and I cringe a bit whenever I see someone make the “it’s more real“ comment. It’s just silly. That “realer” hype more often than not comes from the users, not the company.

 

[BatmansRigTalk]

A month after I bought the EVH 5150III 6L6 50W the modified one came out with concentric pots to balance the volume change between CH1 and CH2. Also an EL84 choice in addition to 6L6 version and then the Stealth came out with tone adjustments not to mention external Bias pot adjustment.

 

[Donnie B.]

Hey, we're all just tossing out our personal opinions here. No rights or wrongs.
There's a million different spins that can be put on the analog vs. digital debate from either
side. For some, the constant Fractal updates are a selling point. For others,not so much.

One man's pleasure is another man's pain.

 

[BatmansRigTalk]

Hey, we're all just tossing out our personal opinions here. No rights or wrongs.
There's a million different spins that can be put on the analog vs. digital debate from either
side. For some, the constant Fractal updates are a selling point. For others,not so much.

One man's pleasure is another man's pain.

Opinions are not always the same as facts. So if someone is claiming updates automatically infer legacy versions aren't replicating the real deal with high fidelity then factually they might be wrong. Likewise with claims about current resale value or how the real deal never make significant updates to tone.

 

[Donnie B.]

So if someone is claiming updates automatically infer legacy versions aren't replicating the real deal with high fidelity then factually they might be wrong.

Let me know who claimed this so I can give them shit.

Likewise with claims about current resale value or how the real deal never make significant updates to tone.

Again, did I mention re-sale value or that tube amps don't get revised?

And read the FM3 update again - more than 1/2 of the bullet points begin with the word FIXED.
This is one year into the product.
Great units performance-wise. There's zero debate there and I never said otherwise.

 

[RevDrucifer]

Let me know who claimed this so I can give them shit.

Again, did I mention re-sale value or that tube amps don't get revised?

And read the FM3 update again - more than 1/2 of the bullet points begin with the word FIXED.
This is one year into the product.
Great units performance-wise. There's zero debate there and I never said otherwise.

I can certainly see some criticism for having fixes a year into production, but at the same time, GTA V came out in 2013 and there are still bug fixes with every update 7 years later. Part of that reason is because some of those bugs only popped up after an update, which could be the case with the FM3 (I never actually pay attention because I don’t own one).

With the first Cygnus beta, there was an issue with the 5153 Red Channel that the update caused, which has been fixed in the newest beta. Unless you’ve got the history of the FM3 and where those issues started, it’s hard to tell if they were there from the start or an update caused them.

 

[Donnie B.]

Unless you’ve got the history of the FM3 and where those issues started, it’s hard to tell if they were there from the start or an update caused them.

It's been a while but followed real close for a while - was on the wait list too. The main thing I kept hearing user complaints
about was the processing limits and compromises folks were having to make and occasional fan noise (missing headphone jack aside).

Had hoped to use it in 4CM mode for FX in front and in the loop of my amps but just got tired of waiting and how things were
going down back then. Thought about the Quad, but again, the wait caused me to find other solutions (individual pedals).

I still have a complete PC based setup with plug-ins from Neural, Mecuriall, Nembrini, and a couple others which is fed into Genelecs.
Sounds killer but it's a plan B right now for when we downsize again.

 

[TheGreatGreen]

Makes you wonder why he didn't just make it go Yooooow in the first place. Thing that kills me with Fractal is the fact you spend
big bucks for a new unit and then within weeks you start getting updates that have notes like:
[improves this]
[fixes errors with that]
[eliminates problems with this]
And then this keeps going on every couple of weeks for the life of the product.

And now Cygnus is being touted as a major paradigm shift in Fractal performance.

And yet, like @ZEN Amps said above, 10 years ago they were marketing them as already 100% accurate.

Personally I'd rather buy a product that gets updates and bug fixes over one that just gets released and forgotten about by its devs. Not sure how that's a real critique.

And that first sentence "Makes you wonder why he didn't just make it go Yooooow in the first place" is kinda ridiculous. You're basically asking "Why didn't they take this previously non-existent technology and make it perfect the first time huuuuh?" Like do you really need that explained to you? This technology that is inherently iterative due to its nature... is in fact iterative. Weird!

And no successful modeling company has ever marketed itself as "100% accurate." They all know there is always room for improvement.

Feels like you're kinda grasping at straws here.

 

[TheGreatGreen]

For all the "modeling bad" posts pointing to Metallica, I'll just say this: Their sounded shifted for the worse in the St. Anger era when James moved to Diezels, and it has never recovered.

Metallica sounding worse than they did in the 90's isn't because they're using modelers now. It's because they're using modelers to duplicate their post-St. Anger tones.

 

[Donnie B.]

Feels like you're kinda grasping at straws here.

Grasping at straws over what?
How many times do I have to repeat that these are my personal opinions.
Disagree all you want but there's no need to jump so hard on the defensive.

So anyway, with Cygnus still in Beta and the Quad not out in the wild I guess the OP's question
is somewhat mute anyway. Time will tell if either of those platforms reach newer heights in
the glass vs silicone debate.

 

[RevDrucifer]

It's been a while but followed real close for a while - was on the wait list too. The main thing I kept hearing user complaints
about was the processing limits and compromises folks were having to make and occasional fan noise (missing headphone jack aside).

Had hoped to use it in 4CM mode for FX in front and in the loop of my amps but just got tired of waiting and how things were
going down back then. Thought about the Quad, but again, the wait caused me to find other solutions (individual pedals).

I still have a complete PC based setup with plug-ins from Neural, Mecuriall, Nembrini, and a couple others which is fed into Genelecs.
Sounds killer but it's a plan B right now for when we downsize again.

There certainly has been some complaints in regards to the processing limitations, but you’ll also notice it’s mainly guys who are trying to pack everything they can into one preset. I get the idea behind it, but spreading things out can go a long way. When you start reading the details of their presets you hear shit like “Well, I need 4 different drives and 4 different amps in one preset because I have to cover a lot of ground, sonically. YOU might not hear the variations I run through when we’re rockin’ “Mustang Sally”, but I really do use all 4 drives throughout the course of my extended solo. Brings down the house every time and I rarely leave sober because people buy me so many drinks and the soundguy LOVES my tones.”

I won’t be touching a Quad until they’ve been out for at least a year. With NDSP not being able to incorporate basic features or even features that were advertised back in 2019, I’ve got too many doubts to dump $1600 in something totally untested. Maybe if they spent money on developing a desktop editor instead of marketing, I’d have more interest. Fuckin’ thing won’t even have auto-engage until after the release.

I’m currently looking into some new studio monitors and would LOVE some Genelecs. I’m using Yamaha HS-5’s with a sub now and I’m so used to them that I’m scared to change, but the ear fatigue I get from those fucking things is insane. I generally do marathon sessions in the studio and after the 6-hour mark, my ears are begging for a break and I don’t even get crazy loud in there. Some nights I have to stop because my ears are just toast. (That’s been happening since I was using my Peavey’s to record with. Just getting ahead of the “IT’S YOUR AXEFX NOT YOUR SPEAKERS!” hahaha)

 

[RevDrucifer]

For all the "modeling bad" posts pointing to Metallica, I'll just say this: Their sounded shifted for the worse in the St. Anger era when James moved to Diezels, and it has never recovered.

Metallica sounding worse than they did in the 90's isn't because they're using modelers now. It's because they're using modelers to duplicate their post-St. Anger tones.

They’re also almost entirely playing stadiums at this point and stadiums can sound like dogshit. The only band I’ve ever heard that sounded GREAT in a stadium was Floyd and that’s because they already had 30 years of experience touring stadiums. That classic Metallica tone, from say AJFA-TBA, isn’t exactly the easiest thing to pump out into a stadium and you could hear the distortion getting dialed back as the mids increased over the years. I’m assuming they’ve got to find some kind of balance between a tone they’re happy with and a tone that can fill up a stadium.

Big Mick, they’re FOH sound guy since the mid-80’s is a big fan of the switch to Fractal. I’ll try to find the video later but he brought up specific reasons why he’s enjoyed over amps/iso cabs. Mostly for consistency shit.

Something I found interesting was when they were on Stern a few months back, live from their HQ, they still used their AxeFX’s instead of one of the hundreds of amps they have kicking around. Might just be a thing of wanting a clear signal to send them without their amps bleeding into the drums and shit, but even then, they’ve got enough space there to put the cabs in a different room, since they’re on in-ears only. Or I suppose since their AxeFX’s are already dialed in it makes shit easier than setting up a new rig that’ll cover all the bases of the songs they were playing.

 

[Donnie B.]

The only band I’ve ever heard that sounded GREAT in a stadium was Floyd.

Not only pros at the engineering aspects but their music really lends itself to wide open acoustics.

That classic Metallica tone.

Like you said, not going to sound good in those venues, even if they used Floyd's PA.
Same goes for any similar genre band playing high decibels with lots of distortion.

 

[4406cuda]

I don't think I've ever seen it put so perfectly.

10 years ago we all saw the videos of how the Kemper perfectly replicates an amp. Now it's 'old tech' and now the Quad Vortex Moretex or whatever it's called is twice as perfect. Oh and try selling an older AXE unit for even 1/2 of what you paid for it.

I did sell my AX8 for $875 before I bought AXE FX III

 

[aside]

The hardcore digital guys will flame me I'm sure. That's cool, I can take it. My question to you - why so hellbent on convincing us tube amp lovers we're wrong, don't get it, aren't listening properly etc?

I own lots of amps, and a Kemper, previously an AXE II and some other modellers. The digital units, regardless of how many months of tweaking just don't sound or feel as good to me. They don't bring me that much joy. They don't inspire me so much and make me smile. There's often debate about what is opinion, and what is fact. Yes of course most of the time, but there's no disputing personal preference and experience. Why get so upset, continue to post essays on why your opinion is superior and keep flogging the horse?

As for resale, I stupidly bought a new Kemper and maybe $1200 worth of profiles. No way in hell I'm getting 50% of that 'investment' back. My AXE II I bought for just over $2000 I think, sold for $850. Of course this can and does happen with all sorts of gear, but anything digital is usually hit the hardest.

A friend put it really well a little while back after playing through my Kemper, saying "I feel like a kid in a lolly shop'. Afterwards he played through a few of my high end amps and said 'forget feeling like a kid, now I feel like a man.'

If it weren't so long a quote I'd put on a t-shirt just to trigger the digital crowd. Flame away.

 

[Tone Monster]

For all the "modeling bad" posts pointing to Metallica, I'll just say this: Their sounded shifted for the worse in the St. Anger era when James moved to Diezels, and it has never recovered.

Metallica sounding worse than they did in the 90's isn't because they're using modelers now. It's because they're using modelers to duplicate their post-St. Anger tones.

Hardwired guitar tones were tits

 

[Donnie B.]

If it weren't so long a quote I'd put on a t-shirt just to trigger the digital crowd.

 

[PBGas]

At least they are constantly fixing and improving the product on a regular basis. I'd rather have that the other companies sitting on a needed update for over a year just to realize that when they updated they broke something else. LOL.

The hardcore digital guys will flame me I'm sure. That's cool, I can take it. My question to you - why so hellbent on convincing us tube amp lovers we're wrong, don't get it, aren't listening properly etc?

I own lots of amps, and a Kemper, previously an AXE II and some other modellers. The digital units, regardless of how many months of tweaking just don't sound or feel as good to me. They don't bring me that much joy. They don't inspire me so much and make me smile. There's often debate about what is opinion, and what is fact. Yes of course most of the time, but there's no disputing personal preference and experience. Why get so upset, continue to post essays on why your opinion is superior and keep flogging the horse?

As for resale, I stupidly bought a new Kemper and maybe $1200 worth of profiles. No way in hell I'm getting 50% of that 'investment' back. My AXE II I bought for just over $2000 I think, sold for $850. Of course this can and does happen with all sorts of gear, but anything digital is usually hit the hardest.

A friend put it really well a little while back after playing through my Kemper, saying "I feel like a kid in a lolly shop'. Afterwards he played through a few of my high end amps and said 'forget feeling like a kid, now I feel like a man.'

If it weren't so long a quote I'd put on a t-shirt just to trigger the digital crowd. Flame away.

No flaming at all. You like what you like. If you are an amp guy, then by all means, enjoy. I love amps as well but don't have any nowadays. Buying $1200 worth of profiles tells me then and there that it wasn't working for you. I am not a Kemper fan at all. I got stuck in that piece of trying to find the right proflie as well but there was no way I was going to start buying a bunch of them only to be disappointed.

Sounds like you sold your Axe II for far less then you could have gotten as well. Again though, I get it. I've been guilty of this when I wanted to move something quickly that wasn't working for me anymore.

At the end of the day, these devices are trying to emulate the real thing and if you already have the real thing and love it, then enjoy it.
I always have the thought of getting another amp in the back of my mind and I may get one again.

This whole this vs. that crap is nothing more then a perception one has on what they hear or like to hear. I like using what I use because it is convenient, gives me a lot of options, sounds good to my ears and for what I need and is most of all reliable especially when gigging or whenever we are able to get back to that.

Growing up in the early 80s playing...I remember how few high gain amp choices we had at the time compared to what we can get now.

Run what you brung and have some fun!

 

[Donnie B.]

Growing up in the early 80s playing...I remember how few high gain amp choices we had at the time

Early 70s was even rougher! My first distortion pedal.

About a half inch slit and you could get Sabbath out of a Sears Silvertone.

At least my pre-teen ears thought so.

 

[cardinal]

I can certainly see some criticism for having fixes a year into production, but at the same time, GTA V came out in 2013 and there are still bug fixes with every update 7 years later. Part of that reason is because some of those bugs only popped up after an update, which could be the case with the FM3 (I never actually pay attention because I don’t own one).

With the first Cygnus beta, there was an issue with the 5153 Red Channel that the update caused, which has been fixed in the newest beta. Unless you’ve got the history of the FM3 and where those issues started, it’s hard to tell if they were there from the start or an update caused them.

Dude thanks for the heads up on the 5153 red. I was wondering what happened there. Saw your post and uploaded to the newest beta and my Gojira sound is back.