Do you think modelers will get there in the next 10 years?

[rottingcorpse]

Early 70s was even rougher! My first distortion pedal.
View attachment 73316

About a half inch slit and you could get Sabbath out of a Sears Silvertone.

At least my pre-teen ears thought so.

Fuck,I would have lost my mind in the 80s if we had the choices we have now. I remember getting excited about the SL-X and the boogie mark2c+.

 

[Bishop5150]

You always have gotten a killer live sound from your AXEFXII and III.

Do you feel any difference in response and liveliness versus your EVH5150 amp setup at all? My main point is a discerning player probably could tell a difference. Now that difference may or may not be an issue with the player.

It hasn’t been an issue for me at all. I get that it would be for others though. If it sounds good then I’m happy and good to go.

 

[harddriver]

It hasn’t been an issue for me at all. I get that it would be for others though. If it sounds good then I’m happy and good to go.

Thanks for all your insights! I appreciate your thoughts and experience.

 

[BatmansRigTalk]

The hardcore digital guys will flame me I'm sure. That's cool, I can take it. My question to you - why so hellbent on convincing us tube amp lovers we're wrong, don't get it, aren't listening properly etc?

I own lots of amps, and a Kemper, previously an AXE II and some other modellers. The digital units, regardless of how many months of tweaking just don't sound or feel as good to me. They don't bring me that much joy. They don't inspire me so much and make me smile. There's often debate about what is opinion, and what is fact. Yes of course most of the time, but there's no disputing personal preference and experience. Why get so upset, continue to post essays on why your opinion is superior and keep flogging the horse?

As for resale, I stupidly bought a new Kemper and maybe $1200 worth of profiles. No way in hell I'm getting 50% of that 'investment' back. My AXE II I bought for just over $2000 I think, sold for $850. Of course this can and does happen with all sorts of gear, but anything digital is usually hit the hardest.

A friend put it really well a little while back after playing through my Kemper, saying "I feel like a kid in a lolly shop'. Afterwards he played through a few of my high end amps and said 'forget feeling like a kid, now I feel like a man.'

If it weren't so long a quote I'd put on a t-shirt just to trigger the digital crowd. Flame away.

Look at the OP title.

The problem is not subjective opinions.

The problem is stating that there is a con with profiling hardware. That there is something objectively wrong with the units. For example, the existence of updates means something must be wrong with prior versions of the hardware. That the processing power isn't there. That the algorithms aren't there.

Will they get there in 10 years? They were there 10 years ago!

That's all. If people are going to say there are flaws with the units then they have to back that up with objective facts. That's it. It is all anyone is asking.

 

[Donnie B.]

Buddy of mine just summed up the whole analog amp vs digital amp argument with a perfect analogy.

"It's like the constant weekend duffer battle over which set of golf clubs let's them best play 40 over par..."

 

[Donnie B.]

If people are going to say there are flaws with the units then they have to back that up with objective facts.

Other than me mistakenly bringing up aliasing, who are these "people" you keep talking about?

I see people saying "I tried both and prefer the sound/feel of tubes."

That, in and of itself, is an objective fact. What more do you want?

 

[BatmansRigTalk]

Other than me mistakenly bringing up aliasing, who are these "people" you keep talking about?

I see people saying "I tried both and prefer the sound/feel of tubes."

That, in and of itself, is an objective fact. What more do you want?

I already mentioned the updates claim for example.

Objectivity involves no subjectivity. Like the updates claim. Like your aliasing claim. Objective claims are supposed to exist outside of subjective opinions. So when people say they prefer one of another, that is not being objective. It is subjective.

 

[IS350xtrm]

We’ve been “there” for a long time. It’s really all just opinion, bias, what people are used to and the all important $$$$$$$$$$$. Honestly, it isn’t players who are keeping tube amps alive, it’s the collectors, dealers and manufacturers. It’s like everything else on earth someone has a vested monetary interest in it so the myth perpetuates. There’s no way on earth a klon is worth multiple thousands of dollars or that someone else can’t custom build you an exact copy of a Cameron or a dumble for far less money. But someone somewhere that’s a decent player has one that he likes and says nothing else is as good so a bunch of other people jump on the bandwagon and turn it into something it never was. My wife swears by Chanel bags at $6000-$10000 each because they are made of the best materials yada yada yada. Does anyone who isn’t into Chanel bags have any argument why they would cost that kind of money when you can go to any department store on earth and buy a leather bag that’ll last your wife 10 years and only cost $100? Once you get used to anything it’s fine. Give a great player a piece of crap and he’ll sound great. Give a crappy player a dumble or any other high end amp or guitar and it’s still going to sound like crap.

Ok rant over... sorry

 

[Devin]

Will they get there in 10 years? They were there 10 years ago!

That's all. If people are going to say there are flaws with the units then they have to back that up with objective facts. That's it. It is all anyone is asking.

You keep saying that as if your statement that "modelers became 100% accurate to the amps they are modeling 10 years ago" isn't also a subjective opinion

 

[BatmansRigTalk]

You keep saying that as if your statement that "modelers became 100% accurate to the amps they are modeling 10 years ago" isn't also a subjective opinion

This is an objective fact that is well demonstrated in two ways. Scientifically and through experimentation.

The experiment has to do with failing double-blind tests. If golden ears are failing to discriminate consistently between modelers and the real deal, then the profilers have achieved their objective of replicating the sound of the real deal. The second way is the scientific way. Frequencies are frequencies. That is measurable. Quantifiable. Hard science.

Attempts to prove they are different, which is what any sound engineer or scientifically minded person would do, have failed. Furthermore, no one can actually say what is causing the difference exactly or why it should cause a difference if any difference was identified.

That isn't just an opinion. It is an objective fact. It exists regardless of what my subjective opinion of it may be.

Sound is physics. Notice I didn't say music. I said sound specifically.

 

[Donnie B.]

Honestly, it isn’t players who are keeping tube amps alive, it’s the collectors,

A collector isn't going to buy anything unless it has an inherent value over and above
the dollars spent. While a Dumble falls into that category, 99% of tube amps being sold today are not being
bought up to be put in glass display cases.

dealers and manufacturers.

Manufacturers make stuff. Dealers sell stuff. I think there's a third factor involved here.

There’s no way on earth a klon is worth multiple thousands of dollars.

Same could be said of a Rolex or a Lexus.
Not sure how a Klon and Dumble got involved in the discussion about
modelers vs the real thing though.

 

[IS350xtrm]

I don’t disagree that Lexus’s, Rolex’s etc fall in there either. The brand names are just examples. We live in a world now where a lot of our “stuff” isn’t based on need but rather on wants. When that becomes the case the difference comes down to a persons perception. That perception to some degree has to do with experience but unless you can try every single thing available a lot of it has to do with research, reputation, etc. That’s why marketing companies, some YouTubers, etc. do so well. They influence people to buy one thing over another. Of course collectors, distributors, companies are involved. They have a vested monetary interest. Don’t fool yourself into thinking otherwise. There’s more money in advertising, influencing etc than there is in an actual product. Yeah players buy and use tube amps. They also sell a lot of tube amps to buy other tube amps because the one they thought would be “it” wasn’t. Personally I have tube amps, I buy them use them sell them buy other tube amps. I’ve also owned most of the modelers and still have an axe fx 3 mk 2. Is it better than the mk 1? I don’t know. But it’s a mk 2 so it has to be right? Probably not but I’ll buy in. If a plexi or an old fender were the end all be all the development would have stopped there. Same could be said of any current tube amp, modeler, etc. at the end of the day tech changes, opinion changes, people come along who go against the grain and manage to sway a market and all along the way someone is there looking for a way to make money. Modelers sound great these days and once you get used to them you really don’t know the difference. Do they sound identical to the amps they model? Maybe maybe not. Does it matter. Two supposedly identical amps don’t always sound the same when component tolerances etc are taken into account. I’m just happy we live in an age where we have so many choices.

 

[Donnie B.]

Modelers sound great these days and once you get used to them you really don’t know the difference.

You were making great points up to this. I wholeheartedly agree that modelers sound great these days.
That's why I use digital gear too. But I 'hear/feel' the difference so tubes are my #1.

Do they sound identical to the amps they model? Maybe maybe not. Does it matter. Two supposedly identical amps don’t always sound the same when component tolerances etc are taken into account.

You're comparing apples to onions. I've played a ton of Fender Deluxes through the decades.
You're absolutely right! They do all sound slightly different. They also all sound like a Deluxe.
In my many years of trying I have never found a model or profile from any digital platform,
including plug-ins, that makes me think I'm playing a real Fender Deluxe.
An AC30 is another one I've yet to be ENTIRELY happy with.

I’m just happy we live in an age where we have so many choices.

Yet you and others seem to take issue with those that (after extensively trying both) prefer the analog/tube choice?

"Play whatever you want... I have tube amps too... It's great to have choices..."
"BUT. Why do you say that modelers can't equal tube amps? They sound exactly the same."

see

 

[IS350xtrm]

I don’t take exception. If that’s your preference that’s cool. I like both depending on the day, time, weather... who knows. I’m stating my opinion that modeling is fine as is using tubes. I think modeling is there. Is here to stay and only getting better. I still have and play tube amps as well. The question was when will modeling get “there”. My very experienced opinion is that it is but everyone has their own opinion. If the op didn’t want an opinion, he shouldn’t ask a question that only has an opinion for an answer. No one has a fact that proves it either way.

 

[rottingcorpse]

If Gary Holt uses his Kemper profiles for the next Exodus release(as opposed to his actual amps he profiled), I will kidnap his ass and steal the thumb drive he keeps his profiles on.

You hear me,Gary?! I'm fucking coming for you!!

(I'm kinda kidding....kinda.....I promise to release him unharmed.)

 

[Devin]

This is an objective fact that is well demonstrated in two ways. Scientifically and through experimentation.

The experiment has to do with failing double-blind tests. If golden ears are failing to discriminate consistently between modelers and the real deal, then the profilers have achieved their objective of replicating the sound of the real deal. The second way is the scientific way. Frequencies are frequencies. That is measurable. Quantifiable. Hard science.

Attempts to prove they are different, which is what any sound engineer or scientifically minded person would do, have failed. Furthermore, no one can actually say what is causing the difference exactly or why it should cause a difference if any difference was identified.

That isn't just an opinion. It is an objective fact. It exists regardless of what my subjective opinion of it may be.

Sound is physics. Notice I didn't say music. I said sound specifically.

No.

 

[BatmansRigTalk]

If Gary Holt uses his Kemper profiles for the next Exodus release(as opposed to his actual amps he profiled), I will kidnap his ass and steal the thumb drive he keeps his profiles on.

You hear me,Gary?! I'm fucking coming for you!!

(I'm kinda kidding....kinda.....I promise to release him unharmed.)

While he was showcasing his ESP/LTD GH-600 he told the audience to get a Kemper and someone in the audience asked if he would share his profiles and he gave a blunt "NO" with a smile. Which tells you everything about how much he values his Kemper tones.

 

[Donnie B.]

Gary Holt and a an ESP?? Googled him and damn! He's changed a LOT since 'Animal Instinct' in the early 90s.
Wait a sec, I got the wrong Gary. Remember this guy? (sorry for the derail)

 

[Monkey Man]

Hey, I represent that clip!

Funky. Me likey. His playing reminds me a lot of Greg Howe.

 

[raybarbeemusic]

In the late 80s crate made Ss amps with gain channels that sounded dead nuts like tube amps. SOUNDED.

Feel wise, felt like plugging into a boom box. In the intervening 3 decades, nothing has changed.

Will ss devices sound like tube amps? Yes, a long time ago. Will they ever feel and respond like tube amps? Fuck no, at least not while anyone who knows the difference is still alive.