Expensive Instrument Cable Snake Oil

journeyman73 said:
So, is this the same premise and reality that causes hi-fi audiophiles to plunk down tens of thousands of dollars on speaker cables??

I always figured it was Bs
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I believe speaker cables are a different beast. Capacitance isn’t as important. Capacitance in instrument cables is real, measurable, and can be demonstrated repeatedly. I mean anyone can test this out for themselves. Buy a 50 and a 20 and tell me you don’t hear anything. Then again, I know not everyone’s ears are necessarily sensitive to this sort of thing which is a blessing more than anything. Save time and $
 
Bxlxaxkxe said:
That spirit LXX is intriguing at 15.8. If I decide I want to stick in that ultra low cap range, I will be checking those out for sure
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The LLX is different than the XXL; the reason I like the XXL so much is a few reasons:
-low enough capacitance
-very flexible
-thick (enough) inner core (0.75mm2, roughly AWG 18). Note that the LLX 'only' has a 0,38mm2 core (~AWG 21).
-smooth/glossy cable jacket; easy to clean and doesn't get dirty as much when used on stage, compared to more matte rubber jacket cables.
-not too thick outside diameter (6.8mm), so it will fit Neutrik plugs well. The LLX has a 7.2mm outer diameter; just enough difference to make it harder to get it in the strain relief part of Neutrik plugs.

But yeah, even though it has a thinner core, the LLX has a better (lower capacitance) at 52pF/m vs. 86pF/m.
Since my Monster Rock cable was somewhere in the 140pF/m range, and I've heard the difference with my Klotz LaGrange (@75pF/m) and Spirit XXL cables, I consider everything below 90pF/m a good enough choice.

I'm a gigging musician with a home-studio that uses plenty of cables. So, good enough is good enough.
I'm not gonna outfit my whole studio and rig with Vovox, Zaolla, Evidence Audio or Van Den Hul cables. That could buy me a nice 80's Les Paul Custom...
Paying $100-150(+) for a 10' cable...now *that* to me is snake oil territory.
 
in the grand overall end-to-end signal chain, how much do cables, tone wood, etc. really matter?

not liking what you're hearing? make adjustments.

I suspect adjusting the controls on your amp or your speaker/cab etc. is going to make a bigger difference in what you're hearing than your cables....unless you have a really long cable run, e.g., 4CM with 50'+ cables, no buffers, etc.

it's getting awfully tgp in here. :D
 
rsm said:
in the grand overall end-to-end signal chain, how much do cables, tone wood, etc. really matter?

not liking what you're hearing? make adjustments.

I suspect adjusting the controls on your amp or your speaker/cab etc. is going to make a bigger difference in what you're hearing than your cables....unless you have a really long cable run, e.g., 4CM with 50'+ cables, no buffers, etc.

it's getting awfully tgp in here. :D
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This is SO tgp. Makes me sick that I started it
 
...edit now if there's a noticeable loss of top end or similar, that would be an issue for me. If the cable removes it from the sound leaving my guitar, you really can't put it back in. That's why I stay at 15' or shorter instrument cables, i have live wire, mogami, boss, etc. cables, 10, 12 and 15', and they all sound about the same.

4CM is another story.
 
rsm said:
...edit now if there's a noticeable loss of top end or similar, that would be an issue for me. If the cable removes it from the sound leaving my guitar, you really can't put it back in. That's why I stay at 15' or shorter instrument cables, i have live wire, mogami, boss, etc. cables, 10, 12 and 15', and they all sound about the same.

4CM is another story.
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That is 100% what this is about. That first cable from guitar to pedalboard/first pedal is most important from what I understand
 
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Bxlxaxkxe said:
This is SO tgp. Makes me sick that I started it
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you're not wrong though, but the conversation usually goes too far IMO. Cables can make a difference, but which work best for what you want to hear is subjective.

I like to minimize top end loss; if it sounds muddy or muffled with a cable but doesn't sound like that with another cable, then the muffling cable is history.

YMMV
 
Bxlxaxkxe said:
That is 100% what this is about. That first cable from guitar to pedalboard/first pedal is most important from what I understand
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agree. If I go 4CM, my first cable of choice is a 10' mogami gold. I can, and do, add EQ in my mfx boards...but if that top end is lost in the first cable, you can't get it back the same again, after it's lost. IMO
 
The question is whether that extra high end from a low cap cable is a good thing for a particular rig. I could see it being a problem for someone who plugs straight into their amp with a short cable. Could be too much
 
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rsm said:
agree. If I go 4CM, my first cable of choice is a 10' mogami gold. I can, and do, add EQ in my mfx boards...but if that top end is lost in the first cable, you can't get it back the same again, after it's lost. IMO
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100%
 
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rsm said:
in the grand overall end-to-end signal chain, how much do cables, tone wood, etc. really matter?

not liking what you're hearing? make adjustments.

I suspect adjusting the controls on your amp or your speaker/cab etc. is going to make a bigger difference in what you're hearing than your cables....unless you have a really long cable run, e.g., 4CM with 50'+ cables, no buffers, etc.

it's getting awfully tgp in here. :D
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I get where you're coming from, but like I said in my previous post, there are cables out there that are still affordable and definitely an upgrade over a bog standard $10-20 cable you buy in a store. And soldering it yourself can drop the price even more.

Also, it's always best practice to make sure the source sound/tone is proper, whether it's a guitar+cable or micing a cab. If you have to fix it afterwards (with EQ-ing and such), more often than not you're introducing extra noise by boosting certain frequencies for instances.
 
Bxlxaxkxe said:
The question is whether that extra high end from a low cap cable is a good thing for a particular rig. I could see it being a problem for someone who plugs straight into their amp with a short cable. Could be too much
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I will plug in a 6" patch cable guitar>cab
Maybe i start a trend
 
http://www.shootoutguitarcables.com/guitar-cables-explained/capacitance-chart.html



[td]Guitar Cable[/td][td]Capacitance (Signal Core to Shield per Metre)[/td]
52pF Shootout 'Black Powder' Cables!
[td]Sommer Spirit LLX[/td]

Van Damme Silver Series Session Grade Lo-Cap55pF
Best-Tronics CA-044666pF
Connectronics Rockflex66pF
George L's .15567pF*
George L's .22567pF*
Hosa CGK68pF
Klotz AC11070pF
Mogami 336870pF
Gepco XB20UB73pF
Sommer Stratos75pF
Klotz Titanium75pF
78pF Shootout 'Shooting Jacket' Cables!
[td]Sommer Classique[/td]

Sommer Spirit78pF
Sommer Corona78pF
Cordial CGK 12282pF
Sommer Tricone XXL85pF Shootout 'Boot Hill' Cables!

Sommer Tricone MKII85pF
Sommer Spirit XXL86pF Shootout 'Gun Smoke' Cables!

Cordial CGK17588pF
Cordial CGK Road 7588pF
Van Damme Pro Grade XKE90pF
Van Damme Pro Grade Classic XKE90pF
Van Damme Silver Series Session Grade Flat-Cap90pF
Adam Hall KIK12295pF
Klotz AC10695pF
Proel HPC140105pF
Hosa Zaolla Silverline105pF
Klotz AC104115pF
Whirlwind Accusonic+1115pF
Conquest Sound USA 1115pF
Conquest Sound TL115pF
Proel HPC110120pF
Proel HPC130120pF
Adam Hall 7115122pF
Van Damme Silver Series Session Grade Hi-Cap125pF
Sommer Colonel Incredible130pF
Mogami 2524130pF
Cordial CIK 122130pF
Gotham Audio GAC-1146pF
Belden 9778148pF
Canare GS-4154pF
Mogami 2319155pF
Canare GS-6160pF
Free The Tone CU-416160pF
Belden 8412190pF


Great chart for cable capacitance.
 
Speeddemon said:
The LLX is different than the XXL; the reason I like the XXL so much is a few reasons:
-low enough capacitance
-very flexible
-thick (enough) inner core (0.75mm2, roughly AWG 18). Note that the LLX 'only' has a 0,38mm2 core (~AWG 21).
-smooth/glossy cable jacket; easy to clean and doesn't get dirty as much when used on stage, compared to more matte rubber jacket cables.
-not too thick outside diameter (6.8mm), so it will fit Neutrik plugs well. The LLX has a 7.2mm outer diameter; just enough difference to make it harder to get it in the strain relief part of Neutrik plugs.

But yeah, even though it has a thinner core, the LLX has a better (lower capacitance) at 52pF/m vs. 86pF/m.
Since my Monster Rock cable was somewhere in the 140pF/m range, and I've heard the difference with my Klotz LaGrange (@75pF/m) and Spirit XXL cables, I consider everything below 90pF/m a good enough choice.

I'm a gigging musician with a home-studio that uses plenty of cables. So, good enough is good enough.
I'm not gonna outfit my whole studio and rig with Vovox, Zaolla, Evidence Audio or Van Den Hul cables. That could buy me a nice 80's Les Paul Custom...
Paying $100-150(+) for a 10' cable...now *that* to me is snake oil territory.
Click to expand...
Honestly tried a bunch of cables and the Sommer LLX are probably on my top 2 or 3.

The Spirit XXL is a good "mature" cable you can go wrong with either but the LLX offers a more relaxed midrange, solid bass handling and fantastic top end/presence without being too much. It also doesn't sound bright and is more "dark" but very articulate IME with a lot of definition.


At some point though trying a couple of cables found that it's really less about capacitance and yes capacitance is a factor but other things play a role too like type of conductor used and materials too aside from capacitance. Many times have tried low capacitance cables expecting a bright sound but that isn't always the case.


I have found consistency matters aside from the basics and it's good to keep all patches the same brand. For example the same brand or cable from guitar to board and board to amp offers consistency as well in sound IMO in keeping with whatever tone that cable offers. I usually use one brand for patches and then a different brand for guitar to board and board to amp. If you can use one brand for the whole rig that is great too but usually it's more practical to use one brand for patches and a different brand for guitar to board and board to amp sometimes. Keeping patches the same brand offers some uniformity, consistency and helps trouble shoot stuff easier too in regards to tone or any mechanical problems or issues that may happen IME.


Ultimately the important things matter in a cable and especially in patches as in tight spaces they are under a lot of stress and get moved around often. The basics is you want a durable cable, low noise floor and you want to be happy with the sound and that's about it. You can get a great sound out of "cheap" stuff too and I like using MXR patches too for example because they sound great, low noise and durable too and if I need to replace them it cost like 12 bucks for a 3 pack of 6 inch pancake plugs. Mainly they sound good too and aren't noisy aside from the money, they aren't bad IMO and sound pretty damn good. Whatever cable one uses it's just about the basics and the important things....... low noise floor, durable/robust and good sound and if you got that I mean there really isn't much more too it than that IME and it doesn't cost a lot to get a quality cable nowadays either.
 
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The~Kid said:
Honestly tried a bunch of cables and the Sommer LLX are probably on my top 2 or 3.

The Spirit XXL is a good "mature" cable you can go wrong with either but the LLX offers a more relaxed midrange, solid bass handling and fantastic top end/presence without being too much. It also doesn't sound bright and is more "dark" but very articulate IME with a lot of definition.


At some point though trying a couple of cables found that it's really less about capacitance and yes capacitance is a factor but other things play a role too like type of conductor used and materials too aside from capacitance. Many times have tried low capacitance cables expecting a bright sound but that isn't always the case.


I have found consistency matters aside from the basics and it's good to keep all patches the same brand. For example the same brand or cable from guitar to board and board to amp offers consistency as well in sound IMO in keeping with whatever tone that cable offers. I usually use one brand for patches and then a different brand for guitar to board and board to amp. If you can use one brand for the whole rig that is great too but usually it's more practical to use one brand for patches and a different brand for guitar to board and board to amp sometimes. Keeping patches the same brand offers some uniformity, consistency and helps trouble shoot stuff easier too in regards to tone or any mechanical problems or issues that may happen IME.


Ultimately the important things matter in a cable and especially in patches as in tight spaces they are under a lot of stress and get moved around often. The basics is you want a durable cable, low noise floor and you want to be happy with the sound and that's about it. You can get a great sound out of "cheap" stuff too and I like using MXR patches too for example because they sound great, low noise and durable too and if I need to replace them it cost like 12 bucks for a 3 pack of 6 inch pancake plugs. Mainly they sound good too and aren't noisy aside from the money, they aren't bad IMO and sound pretty damn good. Whatever cable one uses it's just about the basics and the important things....... low noise floor, durable/robust and good sound and if you got that I mean there really isn't much more too it than that IME and it doesn't cost a lot to get a quality cable nowadays either.
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