Guthrie Govan on Going 'Fully' Digital: 'It Forced Me to Think in New Ways'

[Little B]

Offended much? Sheesh....I'll always say that a modeler takes a back seat to ANY good tube amp....period. A good tool to add for convenience/recording/not having to shlep a ton of gear to a gig? Absolutely.

And please, don't try to say that because those bands use modelers, it's because they're SMART. HAHAH. Nope. It's because of the convenience, period. Not having to hire 20 roadies extra to carry in all the cabs etc.
They are EASY to move.
They sound good(but NOT as good as a good tube amp; or else they'd have switched LONG ago haha)
They are easy to replace.

Not hard to see why many bands use them on tour. These days, any major act will try to save money any way they can. Modelers are a huge part of that savings equation.
But, I'd bet top dollar that NONE of the players have sold their tube amps.

^^^^Racerxrated has it dead on here.And as I sometimes bump shoulders w/ the big bands on the arena stages, I can verify he's right.
One of 3 bands I'm in often gets the call to open up for the big bands.
While in the green room with them,and if everyone's approachable and left the ego at the door,I'll often ask them about the modeler I see on stage,or the amps on stage and if they're happy with they're setup...99.9 times out of 100,this is what hear" my favorite amp of all time is my blackface fender, or I can't live without my 2203,or my slo or my iic+ is my fav of all time." I know a guy in a huge pro band that will never part with his bogner xtc's.They never say anything about the modeler that's at the base of thier mic stand. It's because it's all bout the convenience- they already know thier tone is gonna take a hit or loss a bit..and u cannot make that up at the f.o.h board either.
Are we talking minut fine details on tone and feel here? Ya..maybe, maybe not.But from what they tell me,thier favs and prized amps are the ones with glowing glass bottles in-I like Randall Smiths comment" a tube amp is to be treated as a fine instrument in and of itself". Well said Racerxrated!

 

[Rdodson]

Yes. Your tube amps are instruments. My nicest, most toneful and nuanced guitar is my ‘64 335 block. It is amazing. I don’t take it out. I record with it, but it hasn’t left my home studio since I obtained it. Am I overprotective? Yeah, probably. But my strats, my old tele and my Charvels aren’t nearly as delicate. So they go out.

Similarly, my recording rig is a stereo massive thing. It gets used on recordings but doesn’t go out.

Now, if I suddenly land some amazing gig with cartage, well then maybe it changes. But I’m 56 and those calls happened over 30 years ago.

So, I take my Deluxe and a small Blackbird board I breadbox for each particular gig. I have a Synergy Combo supposedly for this very reason that sounds AMAZING, but why bother? Between a Bogner Blue, an SLO pedal, an old Dover Drive, a DUDE and a L6 Helix micro or whatever it is called, I’ll get close enough to get the gig done, have fun, convince the audience, and not have my shoulders and back go on strike.

Is this very sad? Yeah, a little. When I had my 15 minutes back in the day I had a ‘68 SL and an SS power amp and a more 4x12s than you’d need to play the Rose Bowl without a PA.

 

[tallcoolone]

^^^^Racerxrated has it dead on here.And as I sometimes bump shoulders w/ the big bands on the arena stages, I can verify he's right.
One of 3 bands I'm in often gets the call to open up for the big bands.
While in the green room with them,and if everyone's approachable and left the ego at the door,I'll often ask them about the modeler I see on stage,or the amps on stage and if they're happy with they're setup...99.9 times out of 100,this is what hear" my favorite amp of all time is my blackface fender, or I can't live without my 2203,or my slo or my iic+ is my fav of all time." I know a guy in a huge pro band that will never part with his bogner xtc's.They never say anything about the modeler that's at the base of thier mic stand. It's because it's all bout the convenience- they already know thier tone is gonna take a hit or loss a bit..and u cannot make that up at the f.o.h board either.
Are we talking minut fine details on tone and feel here? Ya..maybe, maybe not.But from what they tell me,thier favs and prized amps are the ones with glowing glass bottles in-I like Randall Smiths comment" a tube amp is to be treated as a fine instrument in and of itself". Well said Racerxrated!

An anonymous guy on a forum has a story about an anonymous “big band” who doesn’t like their modeler they are apparently using anyway? Yeah that sure sounds “verfified” to me

Lots of real weighty anonymous opinions here on this thread. I don’t have any real important anonymous friends unfortunately so I have to draw on the dozens and dozens of times I’ve actually set up, gigged and received real time feedback on this stuff. Not a soul here could discern one from the other in a blind listening test—I’d put up money on that. As for feel, I’ve been playing for decades and I have tens of thousands of dollars here in tube amps and cabs—again, i’m not an anonymous expert but I can show multiple clips of both live.

Beware of ‘opinions’ based on nothing. That’s usually what they are worth.

 

[Racerxrated]

An anonymous guy on a forum has a story about an anonymous “big band” who doesn’t like their modeler they are apparently using anyway? Yeah that sure sounds “verfified” to me

Lots of real weighty anonymous opinions here on this thread. I don’t have any real important anonymous friends unfortunately so I have to draw on the dozens and dozens of times I’ve actually set up, gigged and received real time feedback on this stuff. Not a soul here could discern one from the other in a blind listening test—I’d put up money on that. As for feel, I’ve been playing for decades and I have tens of thousands of dollars here in tube amps and cabs—again, i’m not an anonymous expert but I can show multiple clips of both live.

Beware of ‘opinions’ based on nothing. That’s usually what they are worth.

Dude, be real. Seriously. You seem way overly butthurt about what you consider an ‘attack’ on YOU and YOUR modeler. Don’t take it soo freakin personally.
1. Modelers have come a LONG way; and DO sound good. Good enough for many to ditch their tube amps and go full digital.
2. They aren’t quite there yet, the feel is still lacking imo and that’s the big reason why many will ADD a modeler to their stable. But, they still keep their fav tube amps.
3. Adding a modeler to your collection is a good idea, as they are a cinch to record, easy to grab/go to a gig and offer great FX if you only need that part to add to your rig.

So, in the end I do like the appeal of what a good modeler offers mostly for convenience/portability.
Will they send any of my amps packing?
Not a chance.

 

[Devin]

Dude has a monitor for the crowd lol, never heard of that before

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/new...T_DiYhwMISKvA_FwBHRFkpg8V70DM&mibextid=Zxz2cZ

I saw him live right after he made the switch to the Fractal floorboard thing and he was plagued by noise and feedback the whole night. I'm sure by now he has that sorted out. Brian Beller was (is?) still using his massive amp rig which sounded incredible and frankly overshadowed the guitar tone

He still sounded good because obviously he's fucking incredible but when I saw him years ago when he was running the Suhr Badger rigs it was a night and day difference; the Suhr rig sound was epic

 

[tallcoolone]

Dude, be real. Seriously. You seem way overly butthurt about what you consider an ‘attack’ on YOU and YOUR modeler.

I don’t currently own a modeler. And I have a lot more amps and cabs that you have listed in your sig. I just think the strongest opinions against modelers come from individuals who have little to no experience at all with the top line gear. And that isn’t at all “real”.

 

[Racerxrated]

I don’t currently own a modeler. And I have a lot more amps and cabs that you have listed in your sig. I just think the strongest opinions against modelers come from individuals who have little to no experience at all with the top line gear. And that isn’t at all “real”.

No experience with ‘top of the line’ gear, eh?
Let’s see….
50+ modded, stock pre 1990 Marshall 2203/4, 2205/10, Jubilees, NMVs including a 67 Trem 50.
4 2C+, a SRG, 2 HRGs and a Coli.
2 2B Colis.
Rev C Recto, 2 F Triples and a few Gs.
2 Naylor SD60s.
2 Blackface 65 Bassmans
1 1976 Twin
2 Wizards; 1 MTL 50 and a MC100.

Cabs
4 79-83 JCM 800 cabs w/65s
2 1974 Marshall slants with creambacks
1 1972 slant w/Pulsonics
2 800 cabs with 1st version Marshall Vintages
3 Mesa Halfback cabs with various speakers
4 Mesa Traditional/Standard cabs w/V30s
2 1963 Alnico Blue 8 ohm original cones
2 1966 Celestion H25s original cones
2 JBL D120s original
2 Altec H417s original

Many 83-85 USA Charvels, 08/09s and custom shops. Multiple mid-late 80s USA Jackson’s, a few early 90s USA Soloists

I guess if you don’t consider any of my present/previously owned gear ‘top of the line’ then I’d like to see what you consider top of the line lol.

Btw, I’ve owned an AX8, played through a Kemper, Helix…I may grab an FM3 at some point. So I’m really not ‘anti modeler’ at all.

 

[tallcoolone]

No experience with ‘top of the line’ gear, eh?

I’m talking about the AXEFX and the Helix. I have never spend any significant time with a Kemper so I‘m no help there. Obviously this is a tube amp board, we all know what great tube amps can do. Great you have some experience with the AX8 but IMO most here don’t. I always have 10 or so great amps around and I’ve owned well over a hundred—I’ve gigged with both and if there was a huge sacrifice in playing experience I would have ditched the modeling immediately. Usually the drawbacks involve monitoring issues, which with a huge pro PA isn’t an issue.

I guess my point in all this is there is no ‘answer’, just a bunch of great options. To make blanket statements as to what is ‘better’ I find pretty obtuse. We all like different things. Currently I am using tubes but that doesn’t mean Guthrie Govan doesn’t—at this moment in time—feel that the Fractal is a better tool for him. They are all boxes that amplify our guitars, none of it is magic.

 

[pipboy90]

I’m talking about the AXEFX and the Helix. I have never spend any significant time with a Kemper so I‘m no help there. Obviously this is a tube amp board, we all know what great tube amps can do. Great you have some experience with the AX8 but IMO most here don’t. I always have 10 or so great amps around and I’ve owned well over a hundred—I’ve gigged with both and if there was a huge sacrifice in playing experience I would have ditched the modeling immediately. Usually the drawbacks involve monitoring issues, which with a huge pro PA isn’t an issue.

I guess my point in all this is there is no ‘answer’, just a bunch of great options. To make blanket statements as to what is ‘better’ I find pretty obtuse. We all like different things. Currently I am using tubes but that doesn’t mean Guthrie Govan doesn’t—at this moment in time—feel that the Fractal is a better tool for him. They are all boxes that amplify our guitars, none of it is magic.

The answer as to what tool to use for live performances is whatever you, the player, prefers. I personally don't like "the audience doesn't care, why should you?" argument because what you use to amplify your guitar is part of your instrument, including what you use to monitor. Some people don't put much thought into it, which works for them I guess. I like playing through gear that inspires me to play.

The answer as to what sounds better, modeler or the real thing? The answer is still the real thing to my ears, 100%. I've used the AxeFx 3, Kemper, HX Stomp, etc and have done many tests, not just "in the box" but using those devices with a solid state power amps, an FRFR speaker and a tube power amp through a guitar cabinet. I like to think I have good ears. Can modelers sound great in a mix? Yes, absolutely. Do they sound as good as the amps they model? No. Every time I compared a similar amp to its amp model in each scenario, the amp had a sound that had more defined frequencies, had more harmonic content, more low end fullness, and was more responsive to my playing.

I've done this exhaustively, maybe more than most people. It's akin to watching a Youtube video in 720p and then bumping up the quality to 4k, modelers vs amps. I trust my ears more than anything else. I would love for modelers to get to the point where they are indistinguishable from the real thing, but they are not there yet.

 

[RevDrucifer]

Every comment in this thread regarding tube amps VS. modelers could have come from 10 years ago and no one would know any different.

 

[TheGreatGreen]

The toughest thing about these conversations is vetting out the subjective experience of the people having them.

One problem with the anti-modeling crowd is that their experience seems to commonly be (not all by any means, but a lot) something along the lines of “I once played my 100w amp and two 4x12 cabs in the room and it sounded awesome, then I once played a modeler on a patch I didn’t build that uses IR’s I don’t like, through a single budget PA wedge with a 10” speaker that sounds like shit and therefore I can confidently say that modeling as an entire concept is bad and doesn’t even come close to the real thing.”

It’s a lot more interesting when people can show they’re really comparing apples to apples when they talk about this stuff.

Not saying anybody here is guilty of that, just throwing out why these conversations so often go nowhere.

 

[tallcoolone]

One problem with the anti-modeling crowd is that their experience seems to commonly be (not all by any means, but a lot) something along the lines of “I played my 100w amp and two 4x12 cabs in the room and it sounded awesome, then I played a modeler on a patch I didn’t build that uses IR’s I don’t like, through a single budget PA wedge with a 10” speaker that sounds like shit and therefore I can confidently say that modeling as an entire concept is bad and doesn’t even come close to the real thing.”

Bingo. Unless you are running your tube amp through the same exact chain you haven’t compared the two

 

[tallcoolone]

Every comment in this thread regarding tube amps VS. modelers could have come from 10 years ago and no one would know any different.

And until guitar players who grew up during the 70's and 80's are dead and buried it will continue to be the same. All of us who grew up back then drooled over these unobtanium amps our guitar gods played. For many, the idea that these holy grails can be digitally recreated is literally upsetting.

 

[mooncobra]

Dude, be real. Seriously. You seem way overly butthurt about what you consider an ‘attack’ on YOU and YOUR modeler. Don’t take it soo freakin personally.
1. Modelers have come a LONG way; and DO sound good. Good enough for many to ditch their tube amps and go full digital.
2. They aren’t quite there yet, the feel is still lacking imo and that’s the big reason why many will ADD a modeler to their stable. But, they still keep their fav tube amps.
3. Adding a modeler to your collection is a good idea, as they are a cinch to record, easy to grab/go to a gig and offer great FX if you only need that part to add to your rig.

So, in the end I do like the appeal of what a good modeler offers mostly for convenience/portability.
Will they send any of my amps packing?
Not a chance.

I found the feel of a couple modelers to be pretty bogus. Didn’t feel like tube amps at all. Got rid of them quick.

 

[ccn]

Dang man , I have no modelers and only a single amp , I have attempted to purchase more over the years but was nearly murdered by my so called better half.

 

[DanTravis62]

Us gear geeks get emotional about the stupidest shit. If there was a $500 pedal that could 100% recreate the exact tone and feel of any tube amp ever produced it would be looked down upon by many.

Ever see people get riled up about relic finished guitars? Same energy lol

No, my energy is:

they use modelers because they play 200 stadium dates a year and they save fuckloads of money on cartage and roadies. and unless you, also, random RTer, play 200 stadium dates a year, your comment about iron maiden and Metallica using them and that making it the obvious choice is fucking retarded

 

[Eazy-ESP]

Reading everyone’s comments, I seem to be the exact opposite. I find my kemper fine, to amazing for rhythm. Yet to find a lead tone I enjoy.

 

[tallcoolone]

No, my energy is:

they use modelers because they play 200 stadium dates a year and they save fuckloads of money on cartage and roadies. and unless you, also, random RTer, play 200 stadium dates a year, your comment about iron maiden and Metallica using them and that making it the obvious choice is fucking retarded

Kinda like randos on a geek board making believe they know what other people think because it makes them feel better about their toys?

For many, the idea that these holy grails can be digitally recreated is literally upsetting.

Are you upset?

 

[Racerxrated]

The toughest thing about these conversations is vetting out the subjective experience of the people having them.

One problem with the anti-modeling crowd is that their experience seems to commonly be (not all by any means, but a lot) something along the lines of “I once played my 100w amp and two 4x12 cabs in the room and it sounded awesome, then I once played a modeler on a patch I didn’t build that uses IR’s I don’t like, through a single budget PA wedge with a 10” speaker that sounds like shit and therefore I can confidently say that modeling as an entire concept is bad and doesn’t even come close to the real thing.”

It’s a lot more interesting when people can show they’re really comparing apples to apples when they talk about this stuff.

Not saying anybody here is guilty of that, just throwing out why these conversations so often go nowhere.

When I had my AX8 I ran it through a powered monitor; then through the FX return of my C+ Coli, cab sim off, then through a Strategy 400, same, then through an HH V800. It did sound monstrous through the big power amps/cabs as expected; but still lacked the feel of any of my tube amps...better though with the tube power.
It did sound good though, and the FX were also very good. But until a modeler can somehow figure out the feel, I won't be grabbing one unless I need something for a grab/go rig.

 

[DanTravis62]

Kinda like randos on a geek board making believe they know what other people think because it makes them feel better about their toys?


Are you upset?

Dude, basically everyone here has experience with high end gear - both tube amps AND modelers. They both have their place, and can sound great in the right contexts.

you can't seem to grasp that these huge national touring acts would use modelers because of a cost benefit analysis equation, instead of "DURR I USE DAT GEAR BECUZ IT SOUND DA BEST"

The only person that comes off as upset here, is you