Is a Recessed Floyd on a Charvel a good idea?

[rupe]

Asking what happened before Eddie is like asking what happened before the big bang....

But I have a picture of what happened before Eddie

Great info above Rupe. It seems like whoever you talk to was the one who was most responsible for the hot rodded strat. I remember back when I had a large Charvel collection and my GHS sales rep (Frank Green) came into the store and told me he was working on a book about Wayne Charvel. He asked if he could interview me and I said that I lived in Chicago in that time and there HAD to be many, much more knowledgeable guys to interview in So Cal. He then said he just wanted a perspective on what Charvel meant to me in that era. Then he wanted to photograph me for the book with some of my Wayne era Charvels and I said I don't have any Wayne era Charvels and that the oldest guitars I had were 1980. So I held a 1980 and Jay held a 1981 and they were in the book.

When I got the book, it was quite disappointing, but the guy who wrote the book was suich a nice guy that I never said anything to him about it.

Yeah, that book is awful and full of misinformation...had some cool pictures though
What amazes me is how "wrong" most articles are regarding Charvel/Jackson since there are a lot of known facts. Vintage Guitar's article a few years back was terrible and when called out on it by myself and many others they simply replied "we stand by our author"...I can't remember who it was. Lots of inaccuracies in recent articles in both Vintage Guitar and Premier Guitar regarding Randy Rhoads' two Jacksons as well.

 

[rupe]

David Gilmour and Wayne Kramer both had humbuckers in strats as far back as 1968.

I forgot about Wayne Kramer...humbucker in the middle position, correct? I've heard that about Gilmour but I've never seen a pic to back it up.

 

[bigdaddyd]

Rupe,

How was the soloist a complete redesign? If you are excluding every other brand as Charvel ripoffs (which I don't agree with,) what makes the soloist so original? The fact that it was neckthru? That wasn't original. I believe Rickenbacher was doing it in 1956. The headstock? All the other guitars had different headstocks. I don't get it.

 

[Ayrton]

Correct, both guys tried a hum in the middle, and I think David also the bridge.

- David pictured during the soundcheck for the Roland Petit ballett performance in Paris, France, January 1973. The Black Strat featured a humbucker for a very brief time in early 1973 but was soon taken out. At this point the guitar also featured the 1963 rosewood neck.

 

[rupe]

Correct, both guys tried a hum in the middle, and I think David also the bridge.

- David pictured during the soundcheck for the Roland Petit ballett performance in Paris, France, January 1973. The Black Strat featured a humbucker for a very brief time in early 1973 but was soon taken out. At this point the guitar also featured the 1963 rosewood neck.

Cool...never saw that pic

 

[Ayrton]

Some cool pics about Gilmour's strat here.

http://www.gilmourish.com/?page_id=66

 

[rupe]

Rupe,

How was the soloist a complete redesign? If you are excluding every other brand as Charvel ripoffs (which I don't agree with,) what makes the soloist so original? The fact that it was neckthru? That wasn't original. I believe Rickenbacher was doing it in 1956. The headstock? All the other guitars had different headstocks. I don't get it.

It was the whole package...no single element. Neck thru, locking trem, downsized body with larger cutaway, Duncan/Dimarzio pickups, sleek/fast neck shape, 24 frets, crazy colors and graphics, built to order and fully customizable...who else was doing that in '84 (the first prototype was built in '80)?

I'm not saying all of those other brands were complete Charvel rip-offs, but the certainly built guitars back in the 80's that were heavily influenced by Charvel while basically bringing nothing new to the table.

Kramer: still building tuning forks when Charvels were flying out the door. Pacers and Barettas were nothing that Charvel hadn't done years before.

BC Rich: made some awesome custom neck-thru guitars that were essentially hot-rodded Les Paul types. They didn't venture into Strat styles until they hired, wait for it...Wayne Charvel in '86. They then released the ST series followed by the Gunslinger...once again nothing new or different (but still cool guitars).

ESP: essentially Fender clones and then Charvel clones on their Strat style guitars. Later neck thru guitar were essentially Soloist clones, right down to the pre-lawsuit headstock design. They did have some cool contouring of tops and cutaways that were fairly original.

Hamer: started as Gibson inspired before moving into superstrat territory. Once again they really didn't bring anything significant to the table...not too many fans out there of the triple coil pickup...and arguably their coolest superstrat (Californian) was heavily inspired by Rand guitars which themselves were a refinement of the Soloist, bringing us right back to Charvel/Jackson. Hamer did have some oddball thing with a 3-octave neck I believe but they were extremely rare...original though (or did Washburn beat them to it?).

Ibanez: probably the most original of the lot but their flagship superstrat (RG/Jem) was essentially a production version of Vai's Charvel that included all of his modifications...recessed trem, larger cutaway (ala the Soloist which he also played extensively prior to joining up with Ibanez), HSH electronics (rare but not unheard of on Charvels...Vai's didn't originally have this config IIRC), and day-glo paint (Vai's green meanie was originally a sunburst). That said, Tom Anderson built a prototype for Vai with both the trem recess and monkey grip before Ibanez did it so those aren't even Ibanez's innovations even though they were the first to mass produce them.

Did I miss anybody?

 

[Digital Jams]

Wasn't TA involved with the Gunslinger?

 

[rupe]

Wasn't TA involved with the Gunslinger?

Never heard that one, interesting. Tom was offered a job with Kramer as a result of building necks for certain endorsed artists (EVH, Viv, Elliott Easton, Sambora, others???) but turned it down.

Speaking of Kramer, I assume most of you know that their "US" built guitars were actually Japanese ESP parts assembled in NJ. ESP actually got their start as a parts company but eventually began making entire guitars (much like Charvel or Schecter only later).

 

[bigdaddyd]

Rupe,

How was the soloist a complete redesign? If you are excluding every other brand as Charvel ripoffs (which I don't agree with,) what makes the soloist so original? The fact that it was neckthru? That wasn't original. I believe Rickenbacher was doing it in 1956. The headstock? All the other guitars had different headstocks. I don't get it.

It was the whole package...no single element. Neck thru, locking trem, downsized body with larger cutaway, Duncan/Dimarzio pickups, sleek/fast neck shape, 24 frets, crazy colors and graphics, built to order and fully customizable...who else was doing that in '84 (the first prototype was built in '80)?

I'm not saying all of those other brands were complete Charvel rip-offs, but the certainly built guitars back in the 80's that were heavily influenced by Charvel while basically bringing nothing new to the table.

Kramer: still building tuning forks when Charvels were flying out the door. Pacers and Barettas were nothing that Charvel hadn't done years before.

BC Rich: made some awesome custom neck-thru guitars that were essentially hot-rodded Les Paul types. They didn't venture into Strat styles until they hired, wait for it...Wayne Charvel in '86. They then released the ST series followed by the Gunslinger...once again nothing new or different (but still cool guitars).

ESP: essentially Fender clones and then Charvel clones on their Strat style guitars. Later neck thru guitar were essentially Soloist clones, right down to the pre-lawsuit headstock design. They did have some cool contouring of tops and cutaways that were fairly original.

Hamer: started as Gibson inspired before moving into superstrat territory. Once again they really didn't bring anything significant to the table...not too many fans out there of the triple coil pickup...and arguably their coolest superstrat (Californian) was heavily inspired by Rand guitars which themselves were a refinement of the Soloist, bringing us right back to Charvel/Jackson. Hamer did have some oddball thing with a 3-octave neck I believe but they were extremely rare...original though (or did Washburn beat them to it?).

Ibanez: probably the most original of the lot but their flagship superstrat (RG/Jem) was essentially a production version of Vai's Charvel that included all of his modifications...recessed trem, larger cutaway (ala the Soloist which he also played extensively prior to joining up with Ibanez), HSH electronics (rare but not unheard of on Charvels...Vai's didn't originally have this config IIRC), and day-glo paint (Vai's green meanie was originally a sunburst). That said, Tom Anderson built a prototype for Vai with both the trem recess and monkey grip before Ibanez did it so those aren't even Ibanez's innovations even though they were the first to mass produce them.

Did I miss anybody?

I typed out a whole response to this which I just deleted and will replace with....I respectfully disagree.

 

[rupe]

Rupe,

How was the soloist a complete redesign? If you are excluding every other brand as Charvel ripoffs (which I don't agree with,) what makes the soloist so original? The fact that it was neckthru? That wasn't original. I believe Rickenbacher was doing it in 1956. The headstock? All the other guitars had different headstocks. I don't get it.

It was the whole package...no single element. Neck thru, locking trem, downsized body with larger cutaway, Duncan/Dimarzio pickups, sleek/fast neck shape, 24 frets, crazy colors and graphics, built to order and fully customizable...who else was doing that in '84 (the first prototype was built in '80)?

I'm not saying all of those other brands were complete Charvel rip-offs, but the certainly built guitars back in the 80's that were heavily influenced by Charvel while basically bringing nothing new to the table.

Kramer: still building tuning forks when Charvels were flying out the door. Pacers and Barettas were nothing that Charvel hadn't done years before.

BC Rich: made some awesome custom neck-thru guitars that were essentially hot-rodded Les Paul types. They didn't venture into Strat styles until they hired, wait for it...Wayne Charvel in '86. They then released the ST series followed by the Gunslinger...once again nothing new or different (but still cool guitars).

ESP: essentially Fender clones and then Charvel clones on their Strat style guitars. Later neck thru guitar were essentially Soloist clones, right down to the pre-lawsuit headstock design. They did have some cool contouring of tops and cutaways that were fairly original.

Hamer: started as Gibson inspired before moving into superstrat territory. Once again they really didn't bring anything significant to the table...not too many fans out there of the triple coil pickup...and arguably their coolest superstrat (Californian) was heavily inspired by Rand guitars which themselves were a refinement of the Soloist, bringing us right back to Charvel/Jackson. Hamer did have some oddball thing with a 3-octave neck I believe but they were extremely rare...original though (or did Washburn beat them to it?).

Ibanez: probably the most original of the lot but their flagship superstrat (RG/Jem) was essentially a production version of Vai's Charvel that included all of his modifications...recessed trem, larger cutaway (ala the Soloist which he also played extensively prior to joining up with Ibanez), HSH electronics (rare but not unheard of on Charvels...Vai's didn't originally have this config IIRC), and day-glo paint (Vai's green meanie was originally a sunburst). That said, Tom Anderson built a prototype for Vai with both the trem recess and monkey grip before Ibanez did it so those aren't even Ibanez's innovations even though they were the first to mass produce them.

Did I miss anybody?

I typed out a whole response to this which I just deleted and will replace with....I respectfully disagree.

I want to hear your response...maybe you'll change my opinion.
We have an actual civilized thread of value going on here...throw in your .02!

 

[Gainzilla]

Rupe,

How was the soloist a complete redesign? If you are excluding every other brand as Charvel ripoffs (which I don't agree with,) what makes the soloist so original? The fact that it was neckthru? That wasn't original. I believe Rickenbacher was doing it in 1956. The headstock? All the other guitars had different headstocks. I don't get it.

It was the whole package...no single element. Neck thru, locking trem, downsized body with larger cutaway, Duncan/Dimarzio pickups, sleek/fast neck shape, 24 frets, crazy colors and graphics, built to order and fully customizable...who else was doing that in '84 (the first prototype was built in '80)?

I'm not saying all of those other brands were complete Charvel rip-offs, but the certainly built guitars back in the 80's that were heavily influenced by Charvel while basically bringing nothing new to the table.

Kramer: still building tuning forks when Charvels were flying out the door. Pacers and Barettas were nothing that Charvel hadn't done years before.

BC Rich: made some awesome custom neck-thru guitars that were essentially hot-rodded Les Paul types. They didn't venture into Strat styles until they hired, wait for it...Wayne Charvel in '86. They then released the ST series followed by the Gunslinger...once again nothing new or different (but still cool guitars).

ESP: essentially Fender clones and then Charvel clones on their Strat style guitars. Later neck thru guitar were essentially Soloist clones, right down to the pre-lawsuit headstock design. They did have some cool contouring of tops and cutaways that were fairly original.

Hamer: started as Gibson inspired before moving into superstrat territory. Once again they really didn't bring anything significant to the table...not too many fans out there of the triple coil pickup...and arguably their coolest superstrat (Californian) was heavily inspired by Rand guitars which themselves were a refinement of the Soloist, bringing us right back to Charvel/Jackson. Hamer did have some oddball thing with a 3-octave neck I believe but they were extremely rare...original though (or did Washburn beat them to it?).

Ibanez: probably the most original of the lot but their flagship superstrat (RG/Jem) was essentially a production version of Vai's Charvel that included all of his modifications...recessed trem, larger cutaway (ala the Soloist which he also played extensively prior to joining up with Ibanez), HSH electronics (rare but not unheard of on Charvels...Vai's didn't originally have this config IIRC), and day-glo paint (Vai's green meanie was originally a sunburst). That said, Tom Anderson built a prototype for Vai with both the trem recess and monkey grip before Ibanez did it so those aren't even Ibanez's innovations even though they were the first to mass produce them.

Did I miss anybody?

I typed out a whole response to this which I just deleted and will replace with....I respectfully disagree.

Well Hell Darin, Out with it Bro!!! speaking for myself, I find all of this pretty cool. I never gave a damn about the history(Still dont LOL!!!) and anything that I know is crap that I picked up in mags or time on the boards but I was never proactive about it.

 

[mikehickey]

Two more early "humbuckerers" to add to the list...

my buddy John Oates had PAFs in his 50s Strat...this picture is from 1975 but I recall a conversation where he said it was maybe around 1973 when he put them in. He has since put it back to single coils a couple of years ago.

and my hero Allan Holdsworth circa 1978 with DiMarzio PAFs in his Dick Knight modified Strat.. which I would guess he put together in late 76- early 77. He told me years ago the guy he sold it to in the UK put it back to single coils and said " He missed the whole point of that instrument"

Many New York session cats had at least a hacked up Strat with a neck humbucker in the 70s too... David Spinozza, Elliot Randall (humbucker in the middle I think) and of course Hiram.

 

[Digital Jams]

John Oates = Godfather of the superstrat!!!!!

Very cool pic Mike, glad you are on the board with your past knowledge

 

[mikehickey]

Also want to mention... most ALL of the companies followed the Charvel path with their designs post 83/84... most such as BC Rich, Ibanez, Washburn, Kramer etc had similar designed neck plates ( basically ripoffs) like a San Dimas Charvel. A lot of stuff came directly influenced from Steve Vai's Green Meanie and Allan Holdsworth's Red Charvel. Recessed trem... flat fingerboards, wider necks etc.

Yeah Oates was one of the Godfathers... I have let him rip on a couple of my Charvels at soundcheck before

 

[Chubtone]

John Oates = Godfather of the superstrat!!!!!

AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Chubtone]

Rupe,

How was the soloist a complete redesign? If you are excluding every other brand as Charvel ripoffs (which I don't agree with,) what makes the soloist so original? The fact that it was neckthru? That wasn't original. I believe Rickenbacher was doing it in 1956. The headstock? All the other guitars had different headstocks. I don't get it.

It was the whole package...no single element. Neck thru, locking trem, downsized body with larger cutaway, Duncan/Dimarzio pickups, sleek/fast neck shape, 24 frets, crazy colors and graphics, built to order and fully customizable...who else was doing that in '84 (the first prototype was built in '80)?

I'm not saying all of those other brands were complete Charvel rip-offs, but the certainly built guitars back in the 80's that were heavily influenced by Charvel while basically bringing nothing new to the table.

Kramer: still building tuning forks when Charvels were flying out the door. Pacers and Barettas were nothing that Charvel hadn't done years before.

BC Rich: made some awesome custom neck-thru guitars that were essentially hot-rodded Les Paul types. They didn't venture into Strat styles until they hired, wait for it...Wayne Charvel in '86. They then released the ST series followed by the Gunslinger...once again nothing new or different (but still cool guitars).

ESP: essentially Fender clones and then Charvel clones on their Strat style guitars. Later neck thru guitar were essentially Soloist clones, right down to the pre-lawsuit headstock design. They did have some cool contouring of tops and cutaways that were fairly original.

Hamer: started as Gibson inspired before moving into superstrat territory. Once again they really didn't bring anything significant to the table...not too many fans out there of the triple coil pickup...and arguably their coolest superstrat (Californian) was heavily inspired by Rand guitars which themselves were a refinement of the Soloist, bringing us right back to Charvel/Jackson. Hamer did have some oddball thing with a 3-octave neck I believe but they were extremely rare...original though (or did Washburn beat them to it?).

Ibanez: probably the most original of the lot but their flagship superstrat (RG/Jem) was essentially a production version of Vai's Charvel that included all of his modifications...recessed trem, larger cutaway (ala the Soloist which he also played extensively prior to joining up with Ibanez), HSH electronics (rare but not unheard of on Charvels...Vai's didn't originally have this config IIRC), and day-glo paint (Vai's green meanie was originally a sunburst). That said, Tom Anderson built a prototype for Vai with both the trem recess and monkey grip before Ibanez did it so those aren't even Ibanez's innovations even though they were the first to mass produce them.

Did I miss anybody?

I typed out a whole response to this which I just deleted and will replace with....I respectfully disagree.

Which parts do you disagree with? A large part of his post is chronologically accurate.

 

[Anonymous]

Rupe,

How was the soloist a complete redesign? If you are excluding every other brand as Charvel ripoffs (which I don't agree with,) what makes the soloist so original? The fact that it was neckthru? That wasn't original. I believe Rickenbacher was doing it in 1956. The headstock? All the other guitars had different headstocks. I don't get it.

Seriously? The Soloist is completely different from a strat to me. The neck is like a Les Pauls with a longer scale length - same wide flat frets. Bound necks, 24 frets. The body is shaped different than a strat - way more streamlined. The pointy headstock is not strat-like.

When I think of a "super strat", I think of the Jackson Soloist, not the Charvel's I love. The (majority of) early Charvel's are basically rear-loaded, humbucker equipped Strats with oiled necks. I just like the Charvels better for my playing style.

Steve

 

[mikehickey]

John Oates = Godfather of the superstrat!!!!!

AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!

Oates getting down with my buddie's EVH Kramer

 

[Anonymous]

Rupe,

How was the soloist a complete redesign? If you are excluding every other brand as Charvel ripoffs (which I don't agree with,) what makes the soloist so original? The fact that it was neckthru? That wasn't original. I believe Rickenbacher was doing it in 1956. The headstock? All the other guitars had different headstocks. I don't get it.

It was the whole package...no single element. Neck thru, locking trem, downsized body with larger cutaway, Duncan/Dimarzio pickups, sleek/fast neck shape, 24 frets, crazy colors and graphics, built to order and fully customizable...who else was doing that in '84 (the first prototype was built in '80)?

I'm not saying all of those other brands were complete Charvel rip-offs, but the certainly built guitars back in the 80's that were heavily influenced by Charvel while basically bringing nothing new to the table.

Kramer: still building tuning forks when Charvels were flying out the door. Pacers and Barettas were nothing that Charvel hadn't done years before.

BC Rich: made some awesome custom neck-thru guitars that were essentially hot-rodded Les Paul types. They didn't venture into Strat styles until they hired, wait for it...Wayne Charvel in '86. They then released the ST series followed by the Gunslinger...once again nothing new or different (but still cool guitars).

ESP: essentially Fender clones and then Charvel clones on their Strat style guitars. Later neck thru guitar were essentially Soloist clones, right down to the pre-lawsuit headstock design. They did have some cool contouring of tops and cutaways that were fairly original.

Hamer: started as Gibson inspired before moving into superstrat territory. Once again they really didn't bring anything significant to the table...not too many fans out there of the triple coil pickup...and arguably their coolest superstrat (Californian) was heavily inspired by Rand guitars which themselves were a refinement of the Soloist, bringing us right back to Charvel/Jackson. Hamer did have some oddball thing with a 3-octave neck I believe but they were extremely rare...original though (or did Washburn beat them to it?).

Ibanez: probably the most original of the lot but their flagship superstrat (RG/Jem) was essentially a production version of Vai's Charvel that included all of his modifications...recessed trem, larger cutaway (ala the Soloist which he also played extensively prior to joining up with Ibanez), HSH electronics (rare but not unheard of on Charvels...Vai's didn't originally have this config IIRC), and day-glo paint (Vai's green meanie was originally a sunburst). That said, Tom Anderson built a prototype for Vai with both the trem recess and monkey grip before Ibanez did it so those aren't even Ibanez's innovations even though they were the first to mass produce them.

Did I miss anybody?

I typed out a whole response to this which I just deleted and will replace with....I respectfully disagree.

Cop out! Spill it - now!

Steve