Metlupass2
Well-known member
Matt just ignore that guy. He doesn't know what he's talking about. Just read all his other shit posts.
Donnie B.
Banned
Well-known member
Can't believe in 2021 that people still use PCB vs PTP as a gauge in regard to: quality/sound/value etc.
It was a STUPID argument 20 years ago and it's mind blowing that some still think it means anything these days.
It was a STUPID argument 20 years ago and it's mind blowing that some still think it means anything these days.
J
journeyman73
Active member
my Wizard experience was a little different than that repair story (which surprised me a lot, tbh).
i had an MC II built and delivered (on schedule). Was great. Within a couple months its volume would fluctuate a significant amount. Rick responded to me immediately and told me to send it back. He ruled out a tube issue pretty quickly.
the next time I heard from him was to tell me, at his suggestion, that he build me a new amp.
so, within a month I had received 2 newly built amps from him, without having to push or prod for anything - and never waiting more than 24 hours for him to respond to a communication.
ill take that sort of service and pay some more for that level of post-purchase assurance.
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braintheory
Well-known member
There are certainly plenty of great amps that are pcb and plenty not great ones that are ptp, but all I can say is that of the 100+ different amps I’ve owned over the years and countless others I’ve tried, all the amps that I felt sounded best and are gonna be keepers for me are all ptp except for just the Boogies, CCV and Blueface VH4. Is it really the ptp wiring that’s making those amps sound better? Maybe not, but given the pattern I’m noticing there might be something to it and would still think with all other things being equal it’s probably better. Wizard, Larry and Gjika at least seem to think so
Also, I’ve had ptp and pcb versions of the same model pedals (such as mad Professor) and I did think the ptp versions sounded better. The pcb version sounded a little sterile/clinical in comparison. Others I’m sure will have their opposing opinions, but I tend to believe there’s something to it from my experience using my ears. Just my 2 cents
Also, worth noting, the only 2 ptp amps Bogner makes: the Helios and Telos, have imo a much more organic, nuanced, 3D tone than any of his other amps. I also did some AB comparisons with those against his other amps. I still might choose an old JCM800 or JMP2203 that are pcb over those, but I’m a believer in it obviously, but to each their own. I think most amps that are really top notch and go that 110% will be ptp
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braintheory
Well-known member
That’s awesome to hear! Rick was very quick to respond when I’ve emailed him in the past, but was just about minor footswitching stuff I asked about
Samhain
Banned
Well-known member
Beyond Black
Well-known member
Perhaps he had more of a sense of urgency and obligation to repair your defective amp that he himself produced, than he did for an amp that was damaged due to a faulty product that he didn’t.
Donnie B.
Banned
Well-known member
Do you have any background in electronics? All else being equal, saying that one conductor sounds more sterile than the other (both conductors allowing for proper current flow) is simply silly.
Why does PTP usually equal a 10% better overall amplifier in your opinion - taking into account the method of connecting electrical components together is really a small part of the big picture. Again, all else being equal in regard to general quality of materials and assembly.
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braintheory
Well-known member
I have no background in electronics. I’m just going with what my ears tell me. Perhaps those ptp amps also have better components? Who knows? I would never claim as fact that ptp makes an amp sound better, but just noticing a clear correlation in my experience trying all these amps. I’m not saying the conductor sounds more sterile, but simply that when I compared some ptp vs pcb version of the same model Mad Professor pedal, the ptp version sounded better, the pcb was a little sterile comparatively. It again may have been from other factors than pcb vs ptp
One thing I can say from working with others is that sometimes something that can make amps or pedals sound better doesn’t always make any logical sense, but we can all hear a clear difference, so I am very open minded to that stuff. It’s more of an art than science imo. Can’t always go with what seems right on paper. Gotta actually try it out, experiment and use your ears. I notice some guys like Cameron seem to have a more artistic approach and then some other amp guys have a more technical approach where everything they do is all technically sound, but they’re not always as open minded or letting their ears really decide for them and the results in tone show. Just my observations. Not making any factual claims about anything
Seems to me that the guys that make truly exceptional gear tend to be a little crazy, but maybe that’s how you gotta be for this stuff
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Donnie B.
Banned
Well-known member
Totally agree with this! I added the caveat 'all else being equal' to clarify where I'm coming from. Your experience makes perfect sense though - you've owned and/or checked out a LOT of amps and a commonality with many you lean towards is PTP construction. I get bugged with those who will maintain that there's an audible difference between PTP and PCB on those merits alone.
For the record I've owned amps from PTP guys like Ben Fargen, Mark Sampson, Andy Marshall, and most recently a 55LV from Greg Germino. I drool as much as anyone when it comes to looking under those hoods!
It's not PTP vs PCB when we're discussing the better amplifiers these days. It's the quality going into either method.
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novosibir
Well-known member
I very much like these kind of expert's statements and I'm consistently deeply thankful, to again and again being exceptionally gifted, to still may learn so much about tube amps, despite I'm in tube amps already almost 40 years
Presumably all & everything, what I've done, at least since the turn of the millennium must have been wrong
Once again, thank you so much for your eyes opening statement
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braintheory
Well-known member
Yes agreed on all. And for the record some of my all time favorite amps are still pcb like my iic+, Triple Rectifier Rev F/C, CCV, and Blueface VH4. I think it’s the sum of all the parts and just have a theory/opinion that maybe ptp is some part of it, but not necessarily the most important part, but every little percent counts if we’re talking about the very best amps imo. The stories I’ve heard about the tiny little details Dumble did make me believe they’re important since that amp was still in a league of its own from anything else I’ve tried thus far
I have no idea what I’m looking at if I look under the hood, but maybe I’ll learn later
Yes definitely more about quality than pcb vs ptp. Kinda like saying certain food is gonna be better just because it’s homemade. Not always the case. I have tried plenty of ptp amps that I didn’t like at all
Donnie B.
Banned
Well-known member
scottosan
Well-known member
Turret and eyelet construction is not PTP. Most misused construction term In amp history
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braintheory
Well-known member
Very nice! The red’s are great
lespaul6
Well-known member
I actually like the way turret looks over point to point
Donnie B.
Banned
Well-known member
You know that. I know that. But for marketing and public consumption standpoints they have been
appropriately lumped together for years now.
mooncobra
Well-known member
I don’t know anything about the internal workings of an amp. I know what the transformers are, power amp, pre amp, tubes, etc, but that about it.
I have an SS100. My friend brought his over, and this was before I sent it to Dave for mods. Both amps had the same tubes and pre amp tubes. Mine sounded a bit better, everyone there agreed. If they both have the same exact components, and same everything, why does one sound better when every factor was exactly the same? Clearly, some aspect of the amp has something that creates tone that is slightly better than the same exact amp sitting next to it. Why? I have not a clue. And before you say it, it wasn’t in my head. Unless there was some sort of group hallucinations occurring?
J
journeyman73
Active member
the cumulative effects of part tolerances, drift, etc i would think
Donnie B.
Banned
Well-known member
What @journeyman73 said. Plus, it's impossible to say the amps had the same tubes.
I've spent hours rolling pre-amp tubes from the same brand looking for 'the one'.
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