sorry....no.

[70strathead]

interesting...you know pat metheny recorded an album called "zero tolerance for silence" that was utterly dissapointing and sort of had the same approach similar to this. BIG surprise coming from one of the greatest on the planet. The first 18 minutes of the album are just two VERY distorted guitars playing over, under and around each other. There's one in the left channel and one in the right. By panning you can listen to one at a time if you like. This is the case throughout the album, though a third guitar (also distorted) joins for a while later on to add a bit more harmony or should i say chaos.
There are no "real" (or usual) forms used here - nothing that comes close to blues or rhythm changes, nor are there any constant tempos or even time meters - this is not music you snap your fingers to.

My understand is that one of his advisors told Geffen ( his label) to release an unpalatable serving at a time when noisy bands like Nirvana were cash-cows.

I'll pass, Stavinsky and Bartok are as far as I go for outside dissonant music...

 

[cloudnine]

This shit is tough.

On one hand, it's not like anything you would expect to hear or even want to hear. It's totally dissonant, seemingly without time or cohesive melody.

On the other, it's music. It is no matter how much you want to say it isn't.

 

[Gainfreak]

This shit is tough.

On one hand, it's not like anything you would expect to hear or even want to hear. It's totally dissonant, seemingly without time or cohesive melody.

On the other, it's music. It is no matter how much you want to say it isn't.

Well, I hate that sort of crap with a passion. I have the utmost respect for Ed and his views and I share his views on lots of points but Although I don't dig anything about what I heard, I have to respect it and the notionthat other might like it and I leave it at that.
That said, whether or not that classifies as music is HIGHLy debatable. In my eyes, the definition of music is an art of sound in time that expresses ideas and emotions in significant forms through the elements of rhythm, melody, harmony, and color. That tune or so called tune was devoid of any time,rhythm melody or harmony but had plenty of color!. If that's what the author was trying to go for then its genius on one level or pure shit on another depending on what side of the spectrum you are comming from.
i say listen to what makes you happy

 

[cloudnine]

This shit is tough.

On one hand, it's not like anything you would expect to hear or even want to hear. It's totally dissonant, seemingly without time or cohesive melody.


That said, whether or not that classifies as music is HIGHLy debatable. In my eyes, the definition of music is an art of sound in time that expresses ideas and emotions in significant forms through the elements of rhythm, melody, harmony, and color. That tune or so called tune was devoid of any time,rhythm melody or harmony but had plenty of color!. If that's what the author was trying to go for then its genious on one level or pure shit on another depending on what side of the spectrum you are comming from.
i say listen to what makes you happy

Music doesn't necessarily have to express ideas or emotions - it can just be (in my opinion). His playing seems to be consciously avoiding anything concrete like that, for better or worse.

It's not genius or pure shit in my opinion but is definitely closer to the latter for me.

 

[Gainfreak]

This shit is tough.

On one hand, it's not like anything you would expect to hear or even want to hear. It's totally dissonant, seemingly without time or cohesive melody.


That said, whether or not that classifies as music is HIGHLy debatable. In my eyes, the definition of music is an art of sound in time that expresses ideas and emotions in significant forms through the elements of rhythm, melody, harmony, and color. That tune or so called tune was devoid of any time,rhythm melody or harmony but had plenty of color!. If that's what the author was trying to go for then its genious on one level or pure shit on another depending on what side of the spectrum you are comming from.
i say listen to what makes you happy

Music doesn't necessarily have to express ideas or emotions - it can just be (in my opinion). His playing seems to be consciously avoiding anything concrete like that, for better or worse.

It's not genius or pure shit in my opinion but is definitely closer to the latter for me.

 

[JamesPeters]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dn_m8PzSWV0&feature=related

One of the comments says: "The pinnacle of freedom in creativity." Well then, I'm obviously someone who is more interested in let's say, the middle of the mountain of creativity and not so much its peak.

I can and do admit I don't have enough knowledge of music theory to understand if this is cohesive in an obscure/complex way or purely random. But I also admit it's definitely not for me.

 

[mentoneman]

i say if this guy is willing to pluck suck "risky" sounds,
he should be willing to have his nads in the wringer for it as well.

experimentation by nature is wide open for public failure and the consequences thereof, like people hating and loathing his thing---being symapthetic to this guy just because he is rebelling against normalcy just makes you a fan of abnormal or atypical things, not ultra deep or wise. 50 years from now i still would not find any redeeming value to what he's doing.

to select what 99.9999 percent of the thinking world considers nonsense and choosing to play just that and nothing else seems idiotic. soy bomb leaps to mind. and about him being able to repeat that stuff, could you honestly recoginze one *piece* from another? it just seems like just because he's keeping a straight face we're supposed to take him seriously as he flogs and scrapes and sqeaks away.

for me it honestly seems insanely hilariously bad, as if he's playing one mistake after the next, and if there is a point to his thing i'm missing, i just don't care to ever try to understand it because it is so unattractive.

 

[Strat+Marshall]

Ignorance.

 

[70strathead]

ed do you know this guy personally?

No...but I know guys that are hardcore influenced by him, like Henry Kaiser.
I almost quit posting on HRI because of Derek Bailey slammage, can't stomach closed minded shit, this is what I post on TGP re closed minded...


Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 12,341
Ya know what bugs me?
Closed minded shit!
Threads whining about Henry Kaiser or Derek Bailey. "I can't relate to it, and it doesn't fit my precisely engineered little boxes I use to compartmentalize playing therefore it's garbage". type attitude.
Cuts the other way too...John mayer sucks because...Yngwie sucks because.
yeah, yeah, whatever.
Like all the nonsense about the EVH outta tune you tube clip. Who gives a damn whether he is ouuta tune on one song, all the guessing about the why, yet I haven't heard the most obvious...is it possible that in the flow didn't matter, or the mix was crap enough, yada, yada, yada...

bottom line if every aspiring woulda been a contenter spent a bit more time looking in the proverbial mirror we might have a happier world.

Pat you know I dig your way with words and we had disagreements in the past, I can hang with your take on DB, but what bugs me - A LOT- is with the inter nets lemming approach when it snowballs into the "worst player I ever heard" coming from student level players Dig?

I like what you wrote Ed..and totally agree. I'm actually a fan of dissonant music, but like anything, have to be in a certain mood and would rather here it on a violin or piano. Just my taste though. Igor Stravinsky, who toke the atonal route of dissonat-driven music, was slammed so hard for writing the "Rite of Spring" that when he first performed it, it was one of the most riotous concerts in modern musical history, a rock concert gone wild with people hooting, screaming, hissing, and slapping one another...and presumably with no controlled substances involved. crazy..

 

[Phishphood]

That was awful as a song, but it would make a great soundtrack for a short film. There actually were parts of his videos that I found interesting, not all of it was

 

[Phishphood]

ed do you know this guy personally?

No...but I know guys that are hardcore influenced by him, like Henry Kaiser.
I almost quit posting on HRI because of Derek Bailey slammage, can't stomach closed minded shit, this is what I post on TGP re closed minded...

You know henry kaiser?

 

[GRK]

LOL!!!
I haven't read anything before I watched the video. I didn't know I was gonna hear experimental music.
I started watching and I felt bad for the guy thinking he used to be this awesome guitarist who can't play anymore.
Then I come back to the thread and find out that what I heard was what it was supposed to be...

You can pretty much figure what I think from there...

 

[ratter]

for me it honestly seems insanely hilariously bad, as if he's playing one mistake after the next, and if there is a point to his thing i'm missing, i just don't care to ever try to understand it because it is so unattractive.

I don't think I like this stuff anymore than you do, but I found your last statement there kind of sad. If people always took that approach, there'd be a lot of art - painting, lit, music, etc., that would be ignored or shunned.

Even straight jazz and fusion was very unattractive to me at first. I had to force myself to listen. But looking back, I'm sure glad I did.

 

[ratter]

The Pat Metheny record somebody mentioned is the perfect example of the fact that one of the best players in the world can *choose* to put something out that most people, if hearing it the first time, would conclude that he's the 'worst guitarist ever.' So it's obviously a dangerous conclusion to jump to.

 

[mentoneman]

for me it honestly seems insanely hilariously bad, as if he's playing one mistake after the next, and if there is a point to his thing i'm missing, i just don't care to ever try to understand it because it is so unattractive.

I don't think I like this stuff anymore than you do, but I found your last statement there kind of sad. If people always took that approach, there'd be a lot of art - painting, lit, music, etc., that would be ignored or shunned.

Even straight jazz and fusion was very unattractive to me at first. I had to force myself to listen. But looking back, I'm sure glad I did.

perhaps i should just skip through the rolling hills tossing flower pedals over my shoulder and accept anything and everything individuals choose to call "their" music...dude, i'm all for experimentation, and really didn't "get" holdsworth in the beginning, but i'm calling a spade a spade on this one.

even his technique is rancid, but then again, isn't being totally and fully terrible and anti-normal part of what makes him a genius? count me out.
he might be a doctor of music and know everything possible about music but what he is demonstrating on the videos i've seen is pure emperor's clothing nonsense.

this is starting to feel like the debate over "illegal" immigration.

 

[degenaro]

for me it honestly seems insanely hilariously bad, as if he's playing one mistake after the next, and if there is a point to his thing i'm missing, i just don't care to ever try to understand it because it is so unattractive.

I don't think I like this stuff anymore than you do, but I found your last statement there kind of sad. If people always took that approach, there'd be a lot of art - painting, lit, music, etc., that would be ignored or shunned.

Even straight jazz and fusion was very unattractive to me at first. I had to force myself to listen. But looking back, I'm sure glad I did.

perhaps i should just skip through the rolling hills tossing flower pedals over my shoulder and accept anything and everything individuals choose to call "their" music...dude, i'm all for experimentation, and really didn't "get" holdsworth in the beginning, but i'm calling a spade a spade on this one.

even his technique is rancid, but then again, isn't being totally and fully terrible and anti-normal part of what makes him a genius? count me out.
he might be a doctor of music and know everything possible about music but what he is demonstrating on the videos i've seen is pure emperor's clothing nonsense.

this is starting to feel like the debate over "illegal" immigration.

Every time you get off on a negative rant and get called on it "the flower tossing" comment comes out. No, you don't need to accept any thing as "music". But leave room for error when it comes to you getting any intent. Not everything has to conform to what conventionalism preaches as "right" or "good". I actually dig Bailey, and Kaiser and Coleman, huge James Blood Ulmer and Vernon Reid fan. I don't dig it because it's
"abnormal" I dig it because I can hear something that I respond to.
As for rancid technique? WHat in gods name does have technique to do with anything. I come across stuff that gets plenty of back paddingg that is unintentional out of time/tune/etc...
Don't you think it's a bit hypocritical that you get to poke fun of something, but the guys that actually dig it are some kinda freaks?
As for Holdsworth...how does he figure into this?

 

[degenaro]

ed do you know this guy personally?

No...but I know guys that are hardcore influenced by him, like Henry Kaiser.
I almost quit posting on HRI because of Derek Bailey slammage, can't stomach closed minded shit, this is what I post on TGP re closed minded...

You know henry kaiser?

I do. We became friends because of a mutual friend.

 

[degenaro]

I'm writing a research paper on Surrealism/Dadaism/Postmodernism, and out of all the stupid (and great things, of corse) this shit takes the cake.

I'm glad to see someone else here knows who Bireli Lagrene is! He's fucking amazing!

You're funny...some of us were ware of Bireli for the last few decades. Heck I covered a Bireli tune on my last CD.
And even though BL is one of the most amazing players ever, there is no reason for the comparison.
Like comparing Picasso to VanGogh.

 

[degenaro]

I'm not forcing anyone into anything. but read this thread it's a total "can't relate to it=shit" bash.
There's a huge grand canyon between not digging something and the internet typical "worst crap ever'.

Yeah, there's plenty of stuff I don't dig, I move on and don't worry about it. If I dig something I say it, if I don't I won't bother commenting.
As a side note I really don't get the "right to my opinion" attitude though, yeah sure we all can force feed opinions to each other...but why? What fucking good is the right to an opinion when who you're telling it to is just gonna shrug it off anyways.

You may not be forcing it, but you sure are pushing it fairly heavily. I don't see the issue with someone saying X or Y is crap. That's their own right that the EFF is trying to defend. Also, expressing one's opinion on a forum is far from "force feeding" it to someone. There are many emotional and psychological reasons as to why someone might want to express an opinion, even if a majority of the people will not listen.

Then let me try this another way...
Why is it that most negative comments are the equivalent of Monday morning quarterbacking?

 

[degenaro]

i say if this guy is willing to pluck suck "risky" sounds,
he should be willing to have his nads in the wringer for it as well.

experimentation by nature is wide open for public failure and the consequences thereof, like people hating and loathing his thing---being symapthetic to this guy just because he is rebelling against normalcy just makes you a fan of abnormal or atypical things, not ultra deep or wise. 50 years from now i still would not find any redeeming value to what he's doing.

to select what 99.9999 percent of the thinking world considers nonsense and choosing to play just that and nothing else seems idiotic. soy bomb leaps to mind. and about him being able to repeat that stuff, could you honestly recoginze one *piece* from another? it just seems like just because he's keeping a straight face we're supposed to take him seriously as he flogs and scrapes and sqeaks away.

for me it honestly seems insanely hilariously bad, as if he's playing one mistake after the next, and if there is a point to his thing i'm missing, i just don't care to ever try to understand it because it is so unattractive.

Not once have I ever claimed to be deep, usually I'm the first to point out that I'm fairly superficial. Me liking DB has nothing to do with being a fan "of abnormal". Then again that kinda statement alone is enough to get my back up.
60 years ago you got your ass tossed into a concentration camp for being abnormal. Judged by average run of the mill normal dudes. Whether you find anything redeeming on this isn't of any importance, I do..so extent me the courtesy of me not digging the negative pile on this thread promotes.

The worst thing in any art...and on rare occassion I will view music as art...as in Torn, Frisell, 60s/70s Miles, etc...is worrying about what 99.9999 % of the thinking world consider nonsense.
As a matter of fact the problem as I see it is musicians that have turned art into crafts. But you do play to the audience.
One mistake after another? So what...to quote Zappa, sometimes there isn't a sound ugly enough you just have to pour yoghurt on a giraffe.