The Bogner Snorkler REBORN!!! Michael Nielsen

[glpg80]

The Iconic and XTC’s are a very different type of sound. I’d agree the Snorkler wouldn’t be a great choice for most of what you mentioned. It excels I think in rich, thick lower mid growl powerchords, stuff that isn’t too fast or tight, which is basically what you hear in most AIC songs

For whatever reason a lot of guys have been interested in snorklers lately way before this amp was announced and I had lots of interest when selling the Bogner modded Marshall I had recently. As long as the amp sound fairly raw and organic like the Helios or Telos (not filtered/synthetic like the UU) I think it should be a success. I really really hope it doesn’t have filtered sound like the UU. That would make or break my experience with it. Fingers crossed…

See I highly disagree the XTC is a different sound. The blue channel is also 800 based and the red channel is SLO based. It’s like a library of tones but most find their sound and leave it. I’m positive there’s overlap that can be created. I’d even argue a blind shootout.

 

[screamindemon]

There ain't nothing about this based on an 800 !

 

[Snave]

The specifics of the tone on Facelift are lost to time and bad memories at this point. Cliffs Notes:

Jerry has said numerous times dating back to the ‘90s that a Bogner modded Marshall (“Snorkler”) was used.

Dave Jerden has claimed that the Randall and a “Marshall Super Lead” were used.

Ronnie C has stated the Snorkler was used, but later went into detail about a Fender Bassman with a Tube Driver in front blended with it that formed the foundational tracks.

If I had to guess, the Snorkler was probably a given since it was cited by 2/3, and the “Super Lead” mentioned by Jerden was probably the Snorkler and he’s just remembering wrong on what the Marshall was. All 3 of them clearly remember a Marshall.

From there, sounds like the Randall and/or Bassman/Tube Driver forms the other half. Some of that album certainly has a Randall-ish vibe to it, but the Bassman/Tube Driver setup was a pretty damn detailed description which lends some credibility in my eyes.

The Super Lead that Dave Jerden is talking about is his Morin mod, not the Bogner. It's on the bottom right of Bryan Carlstrom's head road case below. The year changes every time he mentions it.

"The main rhythm guitars for Facelift were recorded with a Randall 100 Watt and a Marshall 100 Super lead (left and right guitars) . For the lead guitars on both albums I used my 1988 Marshall Super Lead 100 watt modified by Mike Morin."

"I do remember using my 1978 Marshall Super Lead for lead guitars ( as I do on most of my recordings). My Super Lead was modified by Mike Morin and has an extra pre amp stage and is switchable between 50 Watt and 100 Watt."

 

[napalmdeath]

Well, I gotta say, we don't need yet another MArshall BUT you listen to this back to back with any of the Friedman offerings and this one snarls more and has more teeth/rawness.

I agree. Dave's amps are too smooth. I've said it 100 times.. The PT-20 V2 is the most aggressive offering. I wish he'd revamp the Runt 50 into a PT-50 with that V2 voicing, 3-gain switch, and ditch the clean channel. That would be my ideal Friedman.. That said, for a 50 watt Hot Rodded Marshall, I favor the Helios, (or Splawn Competition).

 

[EXPcustom]

Era correct Bogner modded 50 watt with the Snorkler mod with boost and loop all by Bogner.

 

[napalmdeath]

The Helios is Plexi based while this is 800 based

The Helios in 80's mode is 800 all day.

 

[braintheory]

See I highly disagree the XTC is a different sound. The blue channel is also 800 based and the red channel is SLO based. It’s like a library of tones but most find their sound and leave it. I’m positive there’s overlap that can be created. I’d even argue a blind shootout.

Regardless what they’re based on (I don’t know as much there) the sound and feel (even more so) IME is just very different. The Bogner modded Marshall I had had a more raw/brash character/not polished and didn’t remind me much of any XTC I tried (including the ‘90’s ones). I’ll have to see about this Snorkler 50 when I hear one in person, but from the clips it seems at least in a similar ballpark to the Bogner mod I had in flavor. It also wasn’t super easy or liquid to play like the XTC or Rev 1 Uber. I can give all these verbal descriptions, but if you just played one chord on it I think you’d see what I mean. It’s just a different flavor/vibe than what the XTC or Helios offer. In some ways it’s like the sound I hoped Friedman’s would be like. It’s not gonna be everyone’s cup of tea, but I love it for what it does well and it seems others do too. The only amp I’ve played that I find a bit reminiscent of it is my Bogner Caveman boosted, but still not the same, but also amazing amp for it is, if not better in some ways for its niche. Sure, there can be overlap or approximation of that sound (I can do that as well with some non-Bogner amps I have), but if you really love the amp for the qualities that make it distinct from others then it’s just that imo as are any keeper material amps

 

[FourT6and2]

What do you mean? I know that you know those circuits very well as a hobbyist builder so I'm not sure what you're asking or looking to imply but those amps (plexi/SL and 800) are not a far stretch from each other but they do sound quite different and have different characteristics from each other, even if they share the base tone.

Yeah, kind of a loaded question haha.

I have a Helios 50. Take the fact that it's kind of sort of two amps in one with the dual inputs, and the hot side is basically a JCM800 with Jose mod. You've got three cascaded gain stages with a master volume and diode clipping. There's really nothing about it that screams Plexi to me unless I'm missing something. If you take a SL and do a Jose mod to it and you take an 800 and do a Jose mod to it, they end up in the same place. So I'm still left wondering what the difference is. The Helios I have is JCM800 through and through. The "Plex" input simply bypasses one of the gain stages. The "Hot" input gives you three cascaded stages with a master volume and diodes = JCM800 Jose mod.

Looking at the preamp schematic for the Snorkler posted in the other thread, and it's got four stages from a plate-fed tone stack. It's passing a ton of bass in the first two stages from those large couplers and each stage is biased a little on sloppy side. Add to that a small bright cap which boosts treble and zero mids, plus a 100K slope resistor and you've got a dark, scooped 800 with another gain stage.

 

[PurityS.L.G]

Yeah, kind of a loaded question haha.

I have a Helios 50. Take the fact that it's kind of sort of two amps in one with the dual inputs, and the hot side is basically a JCM800 with Jose mod. You've got three cascaded gain stages with a master volume and diode clipping. There's really nothing about it that screams Plexi to me unless I'm missing something. If you take a SL and do a Jose mod to it and you take an 800 and do a Jose mod to it, they end up in the same place. So I'm still left wondering what the difference is. The Helios I have is JCM800 through and through. The "Plex" input simply bypasses one of the gain stages. The "Hot" input gives you three cascaded stages with a master volume and diodes = JCM800 Jose mod.

Looking at the preamp schematic for the Snorkler posted in the other thread, and it's got four stages from a plate-fed tone stack. It's passing a ton of bass in the first two stages from those large couplers and each stage is biased a little on sloppy side. Add to that a small bright cap which boosts treble and zero mids, plus a 100K slope resistor and you've got a dark, scooped 800 with another gain stage.

Ahhh, gotcha. Now I get why my statement was puzzling. I never played the Helios but all I understood of it was that it was essentially a hot rodded plexi, sort of like the Chupacabra platform. But yeah you're right, once you add the extra gain stage or clipping, it gets to modded 800 territory. I guess I've just always pinned the Snorkler as a modded 2204 since it was originally built on the 800 layout.

 

[glpg80]

Regardless what they’re based on (I don’t know as much there) the sound and feel (even more so) IME is just very different. The Bogner modded Marshall I had had a more raw/brash character/not polished and didn’t remind me much of any XTC I tried (including the ‘90’s ones). I’ll have to see about this Snorkler 50 when I hear one in person, but from the clips it seems at least in a similar ballpark to the Bogner mod I had in flavor. It also wasn’t super easy or liquid to play like the XTC or Rev 1 Uber. I can give all these verbal descriptions, but if you just played one chord on it I think you’d see what I mean. It’s just a different flavor/vibe than what the XTC or Helios offer. In some ways it’s like the sound I hoped Friedman’s would be like. It’s not gonna be everyone’s cup of tea, but I love it for what it does well and it seems others do too. The only amp I’ve played that I find a bit reminiscent of it is my Bogner Caveman boosted, but still not the same, but also amazing amp for it is, if not better in some ways for its niche. Sure, there can be overlap or approximation of that sound (I can do that as well with some non-Bogner amps I have), but if you really love the amp for the qualities that make it distinct from others then it’s just that imo as are any keeper material amps

That’s the one defining character of the XTC that makes it an island amp - you can dial in various tones but you absolutely cannot force it to fight your playing and be stiff, choking, or uninspiring. It always maintains that level of character.

I don’t hear a lot of differences in this snorkler but that’s just me. I said before I’d like to hear a three way comparison against a Helios and a shiva. They’re closer than you think IMO. The XTC has more horsepower to boot and a fender deluxe clean channel on tap.

 

[FourT6and2]

Ahhh, gotcha. Now I get why my statement was puzzling. I never played the Helios but all I understood of it was that it was essentially a hot rodded plexi, sort of like the Chupacabra platform. But yeah you're right, once you add the extra gain stage or clipping, it gets to modded 800 territory. I guess I've just always pinned the Snorkler as a modded 2204 since it was originally built on the 800 layout.

The Chupacabra is also a hot-rodded JCM800 haha

 

[FourT6and2]

That’s the one defining character of the XTC that makes it an island amp - you can dial in various tones but you absolutely cannot force it to fight your playing and be stiff, choking, or uninspiring. It always maintains that level of character.

I don’t hear a lot of differences in this snorkler but that’s just me. I said before I’d like to hear a three way comparison against a Helios and a shiva. They’re closer than you think IMO. The XTC has more horsepower to boot and a fender deluxe clean channel on tap.

The Helios leans more Marshall. The Shiva is quintessential Bogner chewiness.

 

[braintheory]

The Helios leans more Marshall. The Shiva is quintessential Bogner chewiness.

Agreed 100%. The Helios and Telos really imo don’t sound Bogner-like to me, very Marshall-y, but are imo some of the better and they made. I’m impressed with how raw and organic they sound and am really really hoping the Snorkler takes after that rather than the UU’s filtered/sterile quality (please please Bogner don’t ruin the Snorkler like that, I’m begging you lol, GZ’s initial post made me fear this)

 

[Racerxrated]

A fender, Randall and rockman blended at the board I believe is what Dave Jerden says

You have to look up the actual thread here, where Ron Champagne who owns the actual Snorkler, and was the engineer for Facelift tells exactly what was used and for what.
Snorkler was cleans, and leads...modded 65 Bassman with a modded Tube Driver for the heavy rhythms. New World Man here on RT emailed him after that thread, to confirm and yes that's what was used.

 

[Racerxrated]

It was well known that Jerry played an Randall RG80 when he went into the studio to record the first album. There are some YT videos of early shows where Jerry is still playing the Randall live even after recording Facelift and the tone sounded great.

Find the 'demo' of We Die Young...that's the Randall, and it sounds damn close to the Facelift tone. How he dials his amps, and the rest of his rig is the secret.

 

[FourT6and2]

Agreed 100%. The Helios and Telos really imo don’t sound Bogner-like to me, very Marshall-y, but are imo some of the better and they made. I’m impressed with how raw and organic they sound and am really really hoping the Snorkler takes after that rather than the UU’s filtered/sterile quality (please please Bogner don’t ruin the Snorkler like that, I’m begging you lol, GZ’s initial post made me fear this)

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, it'll be easy enough to swap out a few resistors and caps in the Snorkler to give it more of that Marshall mid-range growl. The slope resistor, the coupling caps, the bright cap, the cathode resistors and bypass caps, and the NFB resistor are all ways to shift the focus a bit.

 

[braintheory]

That’s the one defining character of the XTC that makes it an island amp - you can dial in various tones but you absolutely cannot force it to fight your playing and be stiff, choking, or uninspiring. It always maintains that level of character.

I don’t hear a lot of differences in this snorkler but that’s just me. I said before I’d like to hear a three way comparison against a Helios and a shiva. They’re closer than you think IMO. The XTC has more horsepower to boot and a fender deluxe clean channel on tap.

I wouldn’t say at least with the Bogner modded Marshall I had it was at all like I was fighting the amp nor stiff, choked or uninspiring. In its own way it felt pretty good to me, just a very different type of feel than the XTC or Uber’s have. Not a shredder’s dream type amp. Can’t say how this new Snorkler’s feel will be

I’ve played all those amps (owned a Helios). I’m always a fan of doing comparisons (my favorite part of being a gearhead). They show I find both some similarities and differences we may not always anticipate, but I can just say from my experience playing these amps (some I could directly compare, some I couldn’t) they had their differences that I felt were important. The Helios and Telos IME playing them were more Marshally than Bogner in flavor (both imo were really good). The Bogner mod I had was on an ‘80’s 100w JCM2203, so the horsepower was decent, but maybe the 50w on this new Snorkler could somehow complement what it goes for well in warmth or growl. Will find out

 

[NewWorldMan]

It was well known that Jerry played an Randall RG80 when he went into the studio to record the first album. There are some YT videos of early shows where Jerry is still playing the Randall live even after recording Facelift and the tone sounded great.

Yes, but Ronnie C also said he told Jerry to “get those pieces of shit (Randall) out of the studio” because he thought they were terrible, and it became a point of argument until he plugged into the Snorkler, which was used instead.

Meanwhile, Dave Jerden claimed the Randall was used.

 

[NewWorldMan]

The Super Lead that Dave Jerden is talking about is his Morin mod, not the Bogner. It's on the bottom right of Bryan Carlstrom's head road case below. The year changes every time he mentions it.

"The main rhythm guitars for Facelift were recorded with a Randall 100 Watt and a Marshall 100 Super lead (left and right guitars) . For the lead guitars on both albums I used my 1988 Marshall Super Lead 100 watt modified by Mike Morin."

"I do remember using my 1978 Marshall Super Lead for lead guitars ( as I do on most of my recordings). My Super Lead was modified by Mike Morin and has an extra pre amp stage and is switchable between 50 Watt and 100 Watt."

Yes, I’m familiar with Dan Daley’s Studio Sound interview and Jerden’s comments from Gearslutz/Gearspace. In addition to calling that Morin Marshall a ‘78 and ‘88, he’s also called it an ‘80 a few times.

Bryan Carlstrom wasn’t around for Facelift.

Dave Jerden has trouble recalling anything with certainty. The Randall was used according to him. Sometimes it’s cited as a head unit, other times it’s allegedly a combo. The “Marshall” he keeps referencing is a Super Lead, while you’re picturing a “JMP” aesthetic (and he explicitly said it wasn’t a “JMP”). Sometimes it’s claimed to be modded, other times it’s allegedly stock which he liked because it wasn’t overly gained up. Jerden has also confused Facelift and Dirt, stating the “Marshall” was for lows, the Randall for mids, and the Rockman for highs (which wasn’t used until Dirt).

All that said, Ronnie C and Cantrell have both stated time and again the Snorkler was used for leads, not a Morin. It’s the entire reason Jerry sought out Bogner gear afterward, unless you think both of them are completely wrong, he plugged into a Morin, and thought “Damn this Morin makes me want to go buy some gear from Bogner!”

 

[Ben Waylin]

he plugged into a Morin, and thought “Damn this Morin makes me want to go buy some gear from Bogner!”