What Did George Lynch Mean When He Said This? (Music Theory)

[SavageRiffer]

"The foundation of (my teaching approach) is the way I view the fretboard -- which is the way a lot of people view it -- and that's in shapes. You end up learning the same stuff you'd learn from notation or tablature, but it's a much easier way to understand it."

I've often heard different guitarists talk about this, but what are they talking about? How can you compose and improvise without knowing intervals, scales, etc? Is there some simpler way of doing all this without knowing any theory that has somehow eluded me? (barring the "play by ear" answer because that doesn't explain anything). How do you conceptualize the fretboard in shapes so that you know what to play over what chords, etc.?

 

[Anonymous]

All he's saying is that he learned to play/improvise by memorizing the shapes of scales/modes/arpeggios across the fretboard. Same way I did it - then I went back and learned what it all meant and why it worked - the theory.

Through trial and error it's pretty easy to learn to improvise. Lots of people compose music without knowing theory. Both of these things are being done by ear in that case. Theory helps massively and I highly recommend learning it, but it sure isn't a pre-requisite for composing and improvising.

Look, you have to learn some basics - here is a blues scale, here are mode shapes, here are chord shapes, but after that, "play by ear" does mean something. Lots of people learn by improvising over songs they like. People learn to compose by learning to play songs they like and copying/changing. If you have a good ear, you could probably do a lot without ever knowing scale or chord shapes.

Steve

 

[paulyc]

I always took it as bullshit, because I've also read him saying some of the solos he played in the studio would have bandmates on the floor laughing because they were so bad (out of key), which means he has to "find it" every time he goes in to record a take. He's also said he "firmly believes you can play outside the key if you do it with enough conviction". I don't care how hard you mean it, a clam is a clam. George is an enigma wrapped in a mystery, he is one of a kind. That's his magic, that space between knowing what to play through theory and not knowing anything. If he had a deep theory background he wouldn't sound like him at all because he wouldn't play what he plays. In his prime (around the first Lynch Mob album) he was on fire, and probably the best soloist of his generation.

 

[thisguy]

I always took it as bullshit, because I've also read him saying some of the solos he played in the studio would have bandmates on the floor laughing because they were so bad (out of key), which means he has to "find it" every time he goes in to record a take. He's also said he "firmly believes you can play outside the key if you do it with enough conviction". I don't care how hard you mean it, a clam is a clam. George is an enigma wrapped in a mystery, he is one of a kind. That's his magic, that space between knowing what to play through theory and not knowing anything. If he had a deep theory background he wouldn't sound like him at all because he wouldn't play what he plays. In his prime (around the first Lynch Mob album) he was on fire, and probably the best soloist of his generation.

John Coltrane would like to have a word with you.

Well, he's dead so I guess it'll have to wait.

 

[paulyc]

We're talking more "pop" music here, not hard core jazz or fusion. Some guys think Vernon Reid is a genius, some guys think he's shite.

 

[amiller]

All he's saying is that he learned to play/improvise by memorizing the shapes of scales/modes/arpeggios across the fretboard. Same way I did it - then I went back and learned what it all meant and why it worked - the theory.

Through trial and error it's pretty easy to learn to improvise. Lots of people compose music without knowing theory. Both of these things are being done by ear in that case. Theory helps massively and I highly recommend learning it, but it sure isn't a pre-requisite for composing and improvising.

Steve

Agree 100%

Also, here's a neat little tip I picked up recently from a jazz player. This is something he says totally turned his head around and opened musical doors for him. Learn a scale on ONE string and learn to improve on one string. For instance, learn the pattern Em on a single string and guess what - it's the same pattern on every string except for the starting point. If you know the pattern you can pick it up on adjacent strings anywhere on the fret board ... because it's the same pattern.

 

[thisguy]

We're talking more "pop" music here, not hard core jazz or fusion. Some guys think Vernon Reid is a genius, some guys think he's shite.

If we're talking really boring pop music maybe.

What about EVH? He uses the same concept of playing physical patterns over chords that are out of key according to basic theory but work because of factors like symmetrical patterns and such. He was influenced by Holdsworth and it's the exact same concepts that Coltrane used. Check out what EVH calls "falling down the stairs."

A lot of great pop/rock guitars players use chromaticism well. Lukather is an example. Blues/rock players mix the major and minor 3rd over a major chord (mixolydian in sound usually).

 

[Anonymous]

We're talking more "pop" music here, not hard core jazz or fusion. Some guys think Vernon Reid is a genius, some guys think he's shite.

If we're talking really boring pop music maybe.

What about EVH? He uses the same concept of playing physical patterns over chords that are out of key according to basic theory but work because of factors like symmetrical patterns and such. He was influenced by Holdsworth and it's the exact same concepts that Coltrane used.

A lot of great pop/rock guitars players use chromaticism well. Lukather is an example. Blues/rock players mix the major and minor 3rd over a major chord (mixolydian in sound usually).

Yup, there are several solo parts I know by EVH that sound great, but have no theory-based reason why they should - totally chromatic.

Steve

 

[SpiderWars]

RE: outside of the scale/key. Forget who said it but "There are no bad notes, just bad resolutions." When I'm learning a Django song there are so many notes that, when played slow while learning, sound like THE worst possible note. But he resolves it so quickly and perfectly that the 'bad' note suddenly became the perfect spice.

SRV is another that often played 'wrong' but somehow made it sound right.

 

[paulyc]

We're talking more "pop" music here, not hard core jazz or fusion. Some guys think Vernon Reid is a genius, some guys think he's shite.

If we're talking really boring pop music maybe.

What about EVH? He uses the same concept of playing physical patterns over chords that are out of key according to basic theory but work because of factors like symmetrical patterns and such. He was influenced by Holdsworth and it's the exact same concepts that Coltrane used.

A lot of great pop/rock guitars players use chromaticism well. Lukather is an example. Blues/rock players mix the major and minor 3rd over a major chord (mixolydian in sound usually).

Yup, there are several solo parts I know by EVH that sound great, but have no theory-based reason why they should - totally chromatic.

Steve

I think EVH did it backward, he came up with a symmetrical pattern to use in a solo and then wrote the chord part to fit (as close as possible anyway)

 

[Chester Nimitz]

Ive approached Theory a few times with instructors but it was boring and it seemed the Instructors just wanted me to play like them.

I don't have time for Theory im too busy "playing guitar".

Two of my favorite players that couldnt read music : SVR & Lynch.

 

[shredhead7]

As others have said, if you lay the major scale out in three note per string shapes, you get 7 patterns. One for each step (or mode) of the scale. Most players that have had lessons (myself included) were taught this way. As long as you stay in those patterns, you are in key. As you get more familiar with those, you start to learn the outside notes that also work as passing tones. In the pentatonic scale, they are known as blue notes (flat 5).

George took lessons in the late 80's early 90's, he used to sneak into GIT (his words), because he was embarrassed that he was supposed to be one of the kings and wasn't keeping up with Paul Gilbert and Yngwie. That is why his early 90's stuff is so much more advanced than his 80's stuff (sweeping arpeggios and outside scales and notes) and generally faster legato and picking.

 

[paulyc]

The flat 5 is all over Lynch's style.

 

[SpiderWars]

As others have said, if you lay the major scale out in three note per string shapes, you get 7 patterns. One for each step (or mode) of the scale.

Lately I've been doing that with the Harmonic Minor scale and there are some really awesome scales/modes like that (I think they are called dominant, like Phrygian dominant is super cool).

 

[Chester Nimitz]

So is Lydian/Aeolian/Phrygian stuff.

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

All he's saying is that he learned to play/improvise by memorizing the shapes of scales/modes/arpeggios across the fretboard. Same way I did it - then I went back and learned what it all meant and why it worked - the theory.

Through trial and error it's pretty easy to learn to improvise. Lots of people compose music without knowing theory. Both of these things are being done by ear in that case. Theory helps massively and I highly recommend learning it, but it sure isn't a pre-requisite for composing and improvising.

Look, you have to learn some basics - here is a blues scale, here are mode shapes, here are chord shapes, but after that, "play by ear" does mean something. Lots of people learn by improvising over songs they like. People learn to compose by learning to play songs they like and copying/changing. If you have a good ear, you could probably do a lot without ever knowing scale or chord shapes.

Steve

Steve seems to be nailing responses lately. What he says... eventually all you need to know is by ear, what your key is and where you start your "shape". From there you know how they all link. Then you go in and out of them adding flats or whatever to make it sound as you wish. That's really what a "lick" is anyway. Just the shapes you prefer.

 

[amiller]

Hey, what happened to the youtube vid that was in my post? If a vid that I added is removed at least let me know why so that I don't do it again.

 

[paulyc]

It's there but I can't play the video fro some reason

 

[SpiderWars]

Plays on my phone but is not visible at all with my Mac (which is normal, no youtubes vids are ever visible on my Mac when using this site).

 

[amiller]

Very strange. It was there...then it wasn't ... and now it is.

I gotta stop smoking those funny cigs.