Ultimate Friedman style build

[fusedbrain]

Cool project.

Why not add the saturation switches in a different location ala Cameron. The Friedman location makes the amp sound dull and lifeless... which is why lots of people say the never use it.

Yeah, I agree the SAT clipping is not something I like on Friedman amps. But there is a way to fix it to make it sound killer, get rid of the darkness, very CCV like. If you use the Cameron style depth circuit. Scott stumbled on to that one.

Tossed around the idea of making the "SAT" switch a "Cameron" switch instead. Flip it on, and it engages the diodes, and changes the depth circuit over to CCV style.

the NFB of the 50 deluxe kind of addresses this as it has adjustable resistance (response) post the thump control adding brightness similar to the variable Dark switch on the CCV. I kept it simple and use a 3 way response switch. While I still don’t use the SAT it’s much useable, I just have the diode clipping thing covered with the CCV clone

Right. When I played around with the NFB taps, and also the response control, I really just found two usable settings, and is basically the 4ohm, and 16ohm taps. Everything in between is just too much tweak-ability. The 16ohm tap is nice farting around by yourself, the 4ohm tap is IMHO a must in a band mix.

But that CCV depth circuit, with the diode clipping is very nice!

Any chance somebody could elaborate on a "CCV Depth Circuit"?
Is this where you have the NFB resistor BEFORE the depth control, and then the switchable .002uf / .004uf caps, or are you guys referring to something else?
Normally, the depth is before the NFB resistor, and I've always wondered what diff. it would make if you changed the order.

I'm not crazy about using the SAT on my BE100 for the same reasons mentioned above.

 

[Mailman1971]

Off topic. +1. Love the avatar!!
My cats take turns on sleeping on top the cable box.
Build looks killer man.
Can’t wait to hear it.

 

[CrazyNutz]

Any chance somebody could elaborate on a "CCV Depth Circuit"?
Is this where you have the NFB resistor BEFORE the depth control, and then the switchable .002uf / .004uf caps, or are you guys referring to something else?
Normally, the depth is before the NFB resistor, and I've always wondered what diff. it would make if you changed the order.

I'm not crazy about using the SAT on my BE100 for the same reasons mentioned above.

This is a CCV depth circuit:

It sounds great when used with Jose style diode clipping. It sounds great when used in place of the BE100 depth circuit, however ONLY when you have the SAT (diode clipping) switch engaged, otherwise it sounds like poo. Ideally you would make the SAT switch on the BE engage a relay to change the depth circuit to the CCV style, and back to BE100 (standard) style when SAT is off.

 

[fusedbrain]

OK thanks. That's the scheme I've seen, ( although I screwed up the description lol).
So the placement of the NFB resistor is not important in this case?

 

[CrazyNutz]

OK thanks. That's the scheme I've seen, ( although I screwed up the description lol).
So the placement of the NFB resistor is not important in this case?

You can keep the NFB resistor where it's at on the BE100, after the depth circuit. You can also replace the 1M pot with a 220k fixed resistor just like the BE has.
You can bypass/remove that punch switch.


You can put it on a switch so you can switch between stock, and CCV style like this:

 

[CrazyNutz]

Off topic. +1. Love the avatar!!
My cats take turns on sleeping on top the cable box.
Build looks killer man.
Can’t wait to hear it.

Thanks!

 

[fusedbrain]

OK thanks. That's the scheme I've seen, ( although I screwed up the description lol).
So the placement of the NFB resistor is not important in this case?

You can keep the NFB resistor where it's at on the BE100, after the depth circuit. You can also replace the 1M pot with a 220k fixed resistor just like the BE has.
You can bypass/remove that punch switch.


You can put it on a switch so you can switch between stock, and CCV style like this:

Got it!

Thanks for spreading the knowledge

 

[technomancer]

If you're going to go that far might as well throw the sat on a rotary switch and give a bunch of options for different clipping diodes

 

[psychodave]

Any chance somebody could elaborate on a "CCV Depth Circuit"?
Is this where you have the NFB resistor BEFORE the depth control, and then the switchable .002uf / .004uf caps, or are you guys referring to something else?
Normally, the depth is before the NFB resistor, and I've always wondered what diff. it would make if you changed the order.

I'm not crazy about using the SAT on my BE100 for the same reasons mentioned above.

This is a CCV depth circuit:

It sounds great when used with Jose style diode clipping. It sounds great when used in place of the BE100 depth circuit, however ONLY when you have the SAT (diode clipping) switch engaged, otherwise it sounds like poo. Ideally you would make the SAT switch on the BE engage a relay to change the depth circuit to the CCV style, and back to BE100 (standard) style when SAT is off.

My original CCV doesn’t have the same values as above. I can confirm another one of the originals didn’t have those values either.

The thing people forget is the depth circuit is based on the sum of all parts. You have to use torial and error to determine what sounds best AFTER the preamp and power amp sections are decided. For example, simply using that 27k resistor is missing the point. That focuses a certain midrange frequency that I e only ever seen Cameron do. Also, a major thing people don’t realize is capacitor type will have a significant effect on tone. Notice how Cameron uses ceramic caps for depth circuits. It’s not by chance. Personally, I can’t stand the sound of those Mallory 150’s for depth circuits as used in Friedman amps. I also find that using the “standard” .0047uf. cap is too much. I tend to like .003 for Jose type amps.

When I added a depth circuit to my Boogie Strategy 400 power amp, I used a push pull pot. Pushed in was .001uf which worked great with boogie amps. Pulled it was .003uf which worked well with Marshall amps.

“Just my .002uf”. Haha

 

[technomancer]

Any chance somebody could elaborate on a "CCV Depth Circuit"?
Is this where you have the NFB resistor BEFORE the depth control, and then the switchable .002uf / .004uf caps, or are you guys referring to something else?
Normally, the depth is before the NFB resistor, and I've always wondered what diff. it would make if you changed the order.

I'm not crazy about using the SAT on my BE100 for the same reasons mentioned above.

This is a CCV depth circuit:

It sounds great when used with Jose style diode clipping. It sounds great when used in place of the BE100 depth circuit, however ONLY when you have the SAT (diode clipping) switch engaged, otherwise it sounds like poo. Ideally you would make the SAT switch on the BE engage a relay to change the depth circuit to the CCV style, and back to BE100 (standard) style when SAT is off.

My original CCV doesn’t have the same values as above. I can confirm another one of the originals didn’t have those values either.

The thing people forget is the depth circuit is based on the sum of all parts. You have to use torial and error to determine what sounds best AFTER the preamp and power amp sections are decided. For example, simply using that 27k resistor is missing the point. That focuses a certain midrange frequency that I e only ever seen Cameron do. Also, a major thing people don’t realize is capacitor type will have a significant effect on tone. Notice how Cameron uses ceramic caps for depth circuits. It’s not by chance. Personally, I can’t stand the sound of those Mallory 150’s for depth circuits as used in Friedman amps. I also find that using the “standard” .0047uf. cap is too much. I tend to like .003 for Jose type amps.

When I added a depth circuit to my Boogie Strategy 400 power amp, I used a push pull pot. Pushed in was .001uf which worked great with boogie amps. Pulled it was .003uf which worked well with Marshall amps.

“Just my .002uf”. Haha

IIRC that depth circuit was from a Cameron Jose mod, might have been an Aldrich so that is probably why the values don't match the CCV. Would love to know what that CCV values are, but seems everybody just likes to point out they're different

 

[jkdsteve]

Any chance somebody could elaborate on a "CCV Depth Circuit"?
Is this where you have the NFB resistor BEFORE the depth control, and then the switchable .002uf / .004uf caps, or are you guys referring to something else?
Normally, the depth is before the NFB resistor, and I've always wondered what diff. it would make if you changed the order.

I'm not crazy about using the SAT on my BE100 for the same reasons mentioned above.

This is a CCV depth circuit:

It sounds great when used with Jose style diode clipping. It sounds great when used in place of the BE100 depth circuit, however ONLY when you have the SAT (diode clipping) switch engaged, otherwise it sounds like poo. Ideally you would make the SAT switch on the BE engage a relay to change the depth circuit to the CCV style, and back to BE100 (standard) style when SAT is off.

Makes me want to build an amp and read up on my circuit theory all over again.

What is purpose of using two caps in series and parallel there rather than a single cap of 0.5 the value or twice the value....use two different types?

 

[CrazyNutz]

What is purpose of using two caps in series and parallel there rather than a single cap of 0.5 the value or twice the value....use two different types?

Most Cameron gut shots I have seen, and Like Pycho Dave says they are ceramic 1nf caps.

Could have been cheaper to buy, and stock a bunch 1nf ceramic caps

I can attest the ceramics sound better, tighter, and more crisp, added complexity. The film caps can sound tubby in comparison.

 

[CrazyNutz]

simply using that 27k resistor is missing the point. That focuses a certain midrange frequency that I e only ever seen Cameron do. Also, a major thing people don’t realize is capacitor type will have a significant effect on tone. Notice how Cameron uses ceramic caps for depth circuits. It’s not by chance. Personally, I can’t stand the sound of those Mallory 150’s for depth circuits as used in Friedman amps. I also find that using the “standard” .0047uf. cap is too much. I tend to like .003 for Jose type amps.

Yeah I've seen that resistor be anywhere from 27k to 39k. I agree the ceramics do sound better.

Hell I've replace all the silver micas in several marshals with ceramic, and thought it sounded better. There is a misconception that ceramics are inferior in audio circuits, which may be true in hi-fi, but not in guitar amps.

 

[fusedbrain]

simply using that 27k resistor is missing the point. That focuses a certain midrange frequency that I e only ever seen Cameron do. Also, a major thing people don’t realize is capacitor type will have a significant effect on tone. Notice how Cameron uses ceramic caps for depth circuits. It’s not by chance. Personally, I can’t stand the sound of those Mallory 150’s for depth circuits as used in Friedman amps. I also find that using the “standard” .0047uf. cap is too much. I tend to like .003 for Jose type amps.

Yeah I've seen that resistor be anywhere from 27k to 39k. I agree the ceramics do sound better.

Hell I've replace all the silver micas in several marshals with ceramic, and thought it sounded better. There is a misconception that ceramics are inferior in audio circuits, which may be true in hi-fi, but not in guitar amps.

Great info on the ceramic caps for the depth circuit. I've never thought to try that. I've always used film ( usually 225P's or 715's )

I also prefer ceramic to silver mica in certain amps / locations.
Funny story: way back when I first started messing with amps, I thought it would be a great idea to replace all those little ceramic bead caps in a 5150 with silver mica ones of the same value.
BIG f-ing mistake.
Amp sounded like absolute shit.
I had basically destroyed all the caps when I removed them and didn't have any to put back in, so I had to play with the deadest sounding 5150 you've ever heard until I could source all the replacement ceramics and put them back in.
That's how you learn the hard way, I guess

 

[psychodave]

Any chance somebody could elaborate on a "CCV Depth Circuit"?
Is this where you have the NFB resistor BEFORE the depth control, and then the switchable .002uf / .004uf caps, or are you guys referring to something else?
Normally, the depth is before the NFB resistor, and I've always wondered what diff. it would make if you changed the order.

I'm not crazy about using the SAT on my BE100 for the same reasons mentioned above.

This is a CCV depth circuit:

It sounds great when used with Jose style diode clipping. It sounds great when used in place of the BE100 depth circuit, however ONLY when you have the SAT (diode clipping) switch engaged, otherwise it sounds like poo. Ideally you would make the SAT switch on the BE engage a relay to change the depth circuit to the CCV style, and back to BE100 (standard) style when SAT is off.

My original CCV doesn’t have the same values as above. I can confirm another one of the originals didn’t have those values either.

The thing people forget is the depth circuit is based on the sum of all parts. You have to use torial and error to determine what sounds best AFTER the preamp and power amp sections are decided. For example, simply using that 27k resistor is missing the point. That focuses a certain midrange frequency that I e only ever seen Cameron do. Also, a major thing people don’t realize is capacitor type will have a significant effect on tone. Notice how Cameron uses ceramic caps for depth circuits. It’s not by chance. Personally, I can’t stand the sound of those Mallory 150’s for depth circuits as used in Friedman amps. I also find that using the “standard” .0047uf. cap is too much. I tend to like .003 for Jose type amps.

When I added a depth circuit to my Boogie Strategy 400 power amp, I used a push pull pot. Pushed in was .001uf which worked great with boogie amps. Pulled it was .003uf which worked well with Marshall amps.

“Just my .002uf”. Haha

IIRC that depth circuit was from a Cameron Jose mod, might have been an Aldrich so that is probably why the values don't match the CCV. Would love to know what that CCV values are, but seems everybody just likes to point out they're different

Mine has the has the 500pf across the pot and a .0039uf depth cap and a 46k resistor.

 

[psychodave]

simply using that 27k resistor is missing the point. That focuses a certain midrange frequency that I e only ever seen Cameron do. Also, a major thing people don’t realize is capacitor type will have a significant effect on tone. Notice how Cameron uses ceramic caps for depth circuits. It’s not by chance. Personally, I can’t stand the sound of those Mallory 150’s for depth circuits as used in Friedman amps. I also find that using the “standard” .0047uf. cap is too much. I tend to like .003 for Jose type amps.

Yeah I've seen that resistor be anywhere from 27k to 39k. I agree the ceramics do sound better.

Hell I've replace all the silver micas in several marshals with ceramic, and thought it sounded better. There is a misconception that ceramics are inferior in audio circuits, which may be true in hi-fi, but not in guitar amps.

Great info on the ceramic caps for the depth circuit. I've never thought to try that. I've always used film ( usually 225P's or 715's )

I also prefer ceramic to silver mica in certain amps / locations.
Funny story: way back when I first started messing with amps, I thought it would be a great idea to replace all those little ceramic bead caps in a 5150 with silver mica ones of the same value.
BIG f-ing mistake.
Amp sounded like absolute shit.
I had basically destroyed all the caps when I removed them and didn't have any to put back in, so I had to play with the deadest sounding 5150 you've ever heard until I could source all the replacement ceramics and put them back in.
That's how you learn the hard way, I guess

Just to clarify, ceramic for Jose circuits and orange drops for Aldrich circuits.

I’ve mixed types for different sounds as well.

 

[technomancer]

Any chance somebody could elaborate on a "CCV Depth Circuit"?
Is this where you have the NFB resistor BEFORE the depth control, and then the switchable .002uf / .004uf caps, or are you guys referring to something else?
Normally, the depth is before the NFB resistor, and I've always wondered what diff. it would make if you changed the order.

I'm not crazy about using the SAT on my BE100 for the same reasons mentioned above.

This is a CCV depth circuit:

It sounds great when used with Jose style diode clipping. It sounds great when used in place of the BE100 depth circuit, however ONLY when you have the SAT (diode clipping) switch engaged, otherwise it sounds like poo. Ideally you would make the SAT switch on the BE engage a relay to change the depth circuit to the CCV style, and back to BE100 (standard) style when SAT is off.

My original CCV doesn’t have the same values as above. I can confirm another one of the originals didn’t have those values either.

The thing people forget is the depth circuit is based on the sum of all parts. You have to use torial and error to determine what sounds best AFTER the preamp and power amp sections are decided. For example, simply using that 27k resistor is missing the point. That focuses a certain midrange frequency that I e only ever seen Cameron do. Also, a major thing people don’t realize is capacitor type will have a significant effect on tone. Notice how Cameron uses ceramic caps for depth circuits. It’s not by chance. Personally, I can’t stand the sound of those Mallory 150’s for depth circuits as used in Friedman amps. I also find that using the “standard” .0047uf. cap is too much. I tend to like .003 for Jose type amps.

When I added a depth circuit to my Boogie Strategy 400 power amp, I used a push pull pot. Pushed in was .001uf which worked great with boogie amps. Pulled it was .003uf which worked well with Marshall amps.

“Just my .002uf”. Haha

IIRC that depth circuit was from a Cameron Jose mod, might have been an Aldrich so that is probably why the values don't match the CCV. Would love to know what that CCV values are, but seems everybody just likes to point out they're different

Mine has the has the 500pf across the pot and a .0039uf depth cap and a 46k resistor.

Cool, first person I've seen post actual values, thanks

 

[CrazyNutz]

Mine has the has the 500pf across the pot and a .0039uf depth cap and a 46k resistor.

Just to clarify, ceramic for Jose circuits and orange drops for Aldrich circuits.

Good info thanks!

 

[scottosan]

Any chance somebody could elaborate on a "CCV Depth Circuit"?
Is this where you have the NFB resistor BEFORE the depth control, and then the switchable .002uf / .004uf caps, or are you guys referring to something else?
Normally, the depth is before the NFB resistor, and I've always wondered what diff. it would make if you changed the order.

I'm not crazy about using the SAT on my BE100 for the same reasons mentioned above.

This is a CCV depth circuit:

It sounds great when used with Jose style diode clipping. It sounds great when used in place of the BE100 depth circuit, however ONLY when you have the SAT (diode clipping) switch engaged, otherwise it sounds like poo. Ideally you would make the SAT switch on the BE engage a relay to change the depth circuit to the CCV style, and back to BE100 (standard) style when SAT is off.

My original CCV doesn’t have the same values as above. I can confirm another one of the originals didn’t have those values either.

The thing people forget is the depth circuit is based on the sum of all parts. You have to use torial and error to determine what sounds best AFTER the preamp and power amp sections are decided. For example, simply using that 27k resistor is missing the point. That focuses a certain midrange frequency that I e only ever seen Cameron do. Also, a major thing people don’t realize is capacitor type will have a significant effect on tone. Notice how Cameron uses ceramic caps for depth circuits. It’s not by chance. Personally, I can’t stand the sound of those Mallory 150’s for depth circuits as used in Friedman amps. I also find that using the “standard” .0047uf. cap is too much. I tend to like .003 for Jose type amps.

When I added a depth circuit to my Boogie Strategy 400 power amp, I used a push pull pot. Pushed in was .001uf which worked great with boogie amps. Pulled it was .003uf which worked well with Marshall amps.

“Just my .002uf”. Haha

IIRC that depth circuit was from a Cameron Jose mod, might have been an Aldrich so that is probably why the values don't match the CCV. Would love to know what that CCV values are, but seems everybody just likes to point out they're different

i depends on which CCV. From what I’ve seen Mark didn’t build any 2 the same. The Brad era had some differences that were apparent that Mark held back a little on what he shared.

 

[scottosan]

The size of the resistor between the depth and presence will greatly affect how bright/dark the amp will be. This is the purpose of the response control on the Friedman and dark switch on the Cameron. The NFB resistor value and placement before the depth behaves completely different places between the depth control and presence