Do you think that God actually exists?

[ejecta]

It was Paul, sorry, I stand rather embarrased and corrected. I'm rubbish with names...



However I was pretty sure PAUL never met JC.

And, whether you admit it or not, the major 'mover' has to be this bloke. Quite simply he was a Roman citizen who preached to gentiles and this is where modern Christianity came from.

I'll certainly stand by any earlier comments I made regarding massaging the story. The passage in 1 Corinthians ("And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.") is basically an admission of becoming all things to all men to make converts...

Thanks for your input and we all say names at times that we dont intend and its not a problem. No Paul didnt see Jesus before he left this earth but Paul knew personally people who were first eye witnesses. Surely he would have seen and heard of the fact that this man never existed. In fact Paul at first was a leader of a group in the Jewish elite that worked hand in hand wit the Romans who wanted Christianity to go away. Why he just out of the blue decided to stop killing Christians and join ranks with those who were telling the gospel that was perpetuating Christianty is a bit wierd.

 

[ejecta]

They could have been lying. Or exaggerating. Or simply mistaken. We all do it - the old fisherman's story of the one that got away is a prime example, as is the extreme difficulty we have in judging numbers in crowds unless we're well practised!

Is that possible? Sure. But given the evidence it isnt probable.

My doubts in the whole matter, however, are in no way affected as to whether he existed or not. What he physically did IF he existed, yes, and what he is SUPPOSED to ave done in either case, then yes to that too. Unfortunately I have a feeling that you'll never empirically, 100%, prove it one way or the other because of the lack of unbiased records.

Do you believe in the Greek pantheon of gods? If not, why not? There were heros, and the Trojan War was a real event (as far as anyone can tell), and loads of Greeks were convinced of the truth of matters!

I'll tell you... because of the passage of time and the supplanting of that specific system with another. I don't see any fundamental difference in someone worshipping Zeus and honouring Odysseus to that of someone worshipping God and honouring Jesus. Where have all the miracles gone? I mean the *really* impressive ones. I see something spectacular then I'm sold, you know what I mean?

I understand your being supect to the things that are clamed about Jesus and what he did but not sure I agree on the lack of unbaised records. As far as miracles go just becasue you havent witnessed one doenst mean they dont happen anymore. Ive never personally seen many things that there is alot of evidence that do happpen.

 

[bill]

I have been a Christian since 1973 I was 23 at the time of my conversion. I have spent hours and days in discussion on this topic with all kinds of people with some believing and others not. The proof of God's existence is in the pudding so to speak. My best analogy of this is if I tell you there is a lion in the next room you can believe, or choose to doubt what I say. But if you open the door and go in the room, the lion will prove himself. So there it is. If you really want to know the answer to the question, open up the door and see if God will prove himself to you. He did to me and millions of others on this planet. Give it a shot you will not be disappointed. Just open the door and see for yourself.

 

[hairychris444]

Thanks for your input and we all say names at times that we dont intend and its not a problem. No Paul didnt see Jesus before he left this earth but Paul knew personally people who were first eye witnesses. Surely he would have seen and heard of the fact that this man never existed. In fact Paul at first was a leader of a group in the Jewish elite that worked hand in hand wit the Romans who wanted Christianity to go away. Why he just out of the blue decided to stop killing Christians and join ranks with those who were telling the gospel that was perpetuating Christianty is a bit wierd.

But instances of 'poacher turned gamekeeper' and 'gamekeeper turned poacher' are common amongst humanity.

Who's not to say that he may have seen something advantageous in the new cult - the fact that it was proving difficult to stamp out must have told him something, and maybe he liked the mysticism - and he jumped aboard when it looked like it was growing and he'd be in a position to influence it in his direction? There are endless examples of this in our history too.

 

[Xabiche]

I have been a Christian since 1973 I was 23 at the time of my conversion. I have spent hours and days in discussion on this topic with all kinds of people with some believing and others not. The proof of God's existence is in the pudding so to speak. My best analogy of this is if I tell you there is a lion in the next room you can believe, or choose to doubt what I say. But if you open the door and go in the room, the lion will prove himself. So there it is. If you really want to know the answer to the question, open up the door and see if God will prove himself to you. He did to me and millions of others on this planet. Give it a shot you will not be disappointed. Just open the door and see for yourself.

I *was* done but I can't let this one go...

Ah, feh. There is so much wrong with that stereotypical presumption that I don't know where to begin.

To hell with it... I'm done.

 

[ejecta]

Id like to make something very clear. I have many friends who are highly religious and I respect them and there views to death. I don't want them to read some of my statement and get the wrong Idea as I am only tryiing to get people to think. I also come from a highly religious family BTW. With that said, as a thinking man in this day and age, I cannot for the life of me see how believing in Zeus or any polytheistic Gods is any different then believing in one God. There is absolutely no proof on both accounts that any Gods exist. What you believe or not is another thing entirely but everything that has been written is just that... Written words that have been altered throughout time and unless anyone has witnessed a modern day miracle and can show without a reason of doubt empirical proof, this thread will go on for days.

Thank for your input Ralph and the way you repsond with such respect. I hope I am doing the same. To say there isnt any proof of a God at all is an awful big assertion that Im sure I follow.

 

[ejecta]

Thanks for your input and we all say names at times that we dont intend and its not a problem. No Paul didnt see Jesus before he left this earth but Paul knew personally people who were first eye witnesses. Surely he would have seen and heard of the fact that this man never existed. In fact Paul at first was a leader of a group in the Jewish elite that worked hand in hand wit the Romans who wanted Christianity to go away. Why he just out of the blue decided to stop killing Christians and join ranks with those who were telling the gospel that was perpetuating Christianty is a bit wierd.

But instances of 'poacher turned gamekeeper' and 'gamekeeper turned poacher' are common amongst humanity.

Who's not to say that he may have seen something advantageous in the new cult - the fact that it was proving difficult to stamp out must have told him something, and maybe he liked the mysticism - and he jumped aboard when it looked like it was growing and he'd be in a position to influence it in his direction? There are endless examples of this in our history too.

Sure as possible as that is.... it is also possible that what Paul claimed as truth can also be possible. In my research the evidnce points to the validity of his claims.

 

[hairychris444]

They could have been lying. Or exaggerating. Or simply mistaken. We all do it - the old fisherman's story of the one that got away is a prime example, as is the extreme difficulty we have in judging numbers in crowds unless we're well practised!

Is that possible? Sure. But given the evidence it isnt probable.

I hate my browser. Did it again. Lost another whole post. AAARRRGGGHHH.

Define evidence. If I remember correctly (doubtful) all existing first hand accounts of Jesus are from his followers. NOT INDEPENDENT, and their beliefs would certainly be assisted in their spread if they, well, the truth was embellished a bit. Again, not knocking anyone, this is human.

*stuff*

I understand your being supect to the things that are clamed about Jesus and what he did but not sure I agree on the lack of unbaised records. As far as miracles go just becasue you havent witnessed one doenst mean they dont happen anymore. Ive never personally seen many things that there is alot of evidence that do happpen.

I strongly disagree with your definition of unbiased records as I mentioned above.

As for miracles - we now know a lot more about the physical universe, and are far less likely to lay random chance or freak physical effects at the door of a supernatural being. We have become less suprestitious, we have more accurate physical knowledge, and everyday regular folks have the intellectual tools and information available that were not in the past.

More definitions required. I'm sure that loads of stuff that I haven't seen has happened. If the evidence is documented, and conbditions are repeatable then I can be pretty sure that even unlikely events have occured. Hypotheses, like the big bang theory, are a little more flakey but are more speculative due to lack of evidence (why they're hypothese and not theories, fwiw). Miracles and things that go against the innate mechanics of the universe? I doubt it very strongly.

That's not saying that there isn't loads of weird stuff out there. There is. We just don't know how it works yet. Applying 'god' as an explanation enforces ignorance - religious people tend not to like enquiry into how 'god' works - and as I've also mentioned, you're trying to explain something quantifiable (effect) with something unquantifiable ('god' as cause) which is simply a pious way of saying 'I don't know, and I don't want you to find out'.

 

[hairychris444]

Sure as possible as that is.... it is also possible that what Paul claimed as truth can also be possible. In my research the evidnce points to the validity of his claims.

So his 'visions' were documented and verified by an unbiased 3rd party then?

Sorry. As the above is impossible we just have to take his word for it, all things being equal. And he was only human.

 

[Gainfreak]

Id like to make something very clear. I have many friends who are highly religious and I respect them and there views to death. I don't want them to read some of my statement and get the wrong Idea as I am only tryiing to get people to think. I also come from a highly religious family BTW. With that said, as a thinking man in this day and age, I cannot for the life of me see how believing in Zeus or any polytheistic Gods is any different then believing in one God. There is absolutely no proof on both accounts that any Gods exist. What you believe or not is another thing entirely but everything that has been written is just that... Written words that have been altered throughout time and unless anyone has witnessed a modern day miracle and can show without a reason of doubt empirical proof, this thread will go on for days.

Thank for your input Ralph and the way you repsond with such respect. I hope I am doing the same. To say there isnt any proof of a God at all is an awful big assertion that Im sure I follow.

You absolutely respond with major respect. This is the only religion thread where I find that all parties have been civil and I'm truly happy for it.
In all honesty, Im not sure what I believe and It's something that I have questioned for many years. I have gone from being a total believer as a kid to being a bit of a skeptic but I have always kept an open mind and always will.

all the best

Ralph

 

[King Crimson]

Wow...

 

[King Crimson]

IMO religion is like the spokes a wheel. There are more religions than there are cells in bullshit. Every fanatic thinks that they are following the only religion that is "correct, real and holy." However, it all remains and resides at the hub of the wheel.

 

[ejecta]

Sure as possible as that is.... it is also possible that what Paul claimed as truth can also be possible. In my research the evidnce points to the validity of his claims.

So his 'visions' were documented and verified by an unbiased 3rd party then?

Sorry. As the above is impossible we just have to take his word for it, all things being equal. And he was only human.

There were two other people with him when he was blinded who saw the bright light and heard Jesus's voice. Also his vision was of a man Jesus whom thousands upon thousands had seen besides just the apostles. Im is very possible that it could happened as much as it coudnt have.

 

[thiswaythatway]

Who opened the door and let HCAF in?

 

[ejecta]

Id like to make something very clear. I have many friends who are highly religious and I respect them and there views to death. I don't want them to read some of my statement and get the wrong Idea as I am only tryiing to get people to think. I also come from a highly religious family BTW. With that said, as a thinking man in this day and age, I cannot for the life of me see how believing in Zeus or any polytheistic Gods is any different then believing in one God. There is absolutely no proof on both accounts that any Gods exist. What you believe or not is another thing entirely but everything that has been written is just that... Written words that have been altered throughout time and unless anyone has witnessed a modern day miracle and can show without a reason of doubt empirical proof, this thread will go on for days.

Thank for your input Ralph and the way you repsond with such respect. I hope I am doing the same. To say there isnt any proof of a God at all is an awful big assertion that Im sure I follow.

You absolutely respond with major respect. This is the only religion thread where I find that all parties have been civil and I'm truly happy for it.
In all honesty, Im not sure what I believe and It's something that I have questioned for many years. I have gone from being a total believer as a kid to being a bit of a skeptic but I have always kept an open mind and always will.

all the best

Ralph

I have too questioned alot for many years and still do some things Ralph. I dont get why some poeple (not you) think Christians brains just shut down and we cant think and question for ourselves. Like I sit there and just listen Mr Preacher man like a zombie swollowing it hook line and sinker. IT doesn go down like that by any stretch nor does it for many people. All that said just because we think and question, that doesnt mean truth isnt out there nor can it be found. I've for as long as I can remember been a seeker of "why" and looking for truth. When I looked objectively as I could at what the proponents of the Bible wer saying I couldnt deny the amount of evidence that supports alot of what they said let alone after my journey with God sarted that I experienced many things I cant explain in my own personal experiences. I just couldnt ignore all that and trust me when I say deep down I really wanted to prove all that Bible stuff wrong because honestly I didnt like the way it made me face up to how some of my actions nor matter how minute I thought the wrogness was affected others in big ways that I didnt realize.

All in all I dont understand why people hate what Jesus taught or said (again not saying you do justt speaking of what I have read from others) other than the fact that he holds up a mirror for us to see what we should be and it hurts for us to face those facts. Ive been there myself and still am to a certain degree. Again thanks for your input.

 

[ejecta]

Who opened the door and let HCAF in?

You know.... just like Ralph said all parties have been very civil and this thread, given the subject, hasnt gone the way like threads go over there so Im not sure the comparison is accurate. Ive always thought, if the title of the thread doesnt fit something Id like to read or talk about why click on it?

 

[ttosh]

Down the centuries people have invented numerous gods and religions. But what is the point of bowing down to lifeless statues, like the great stone beetles which were often used in the ancient east? What is the point? Why do people do it? For if we make gods ourselves, we know that they have no life, and any divine aura around them is merely projected from superstitious imaginations.

In regards to knowing which one is the right one? I will break this down from some writings that make sense to me.

First, the non-existence of God cannot be proven. One cannot prove a universal negative. Alternatively, the existence of God is provable.

The concept, design, and intricate details of our world necessitate an intelligent designer.

Both direct and indirect evidence for God’s existence are well known and well documented. Nothing in history is better known or better documented than the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. We even use the year of His birth as the basis for our calendar. He perfectly matched the over 100 unique Messianic prophecies in the Old Testament regarding His birth, life, death, and resurrection. The laws of probability cannot give us a reasonable explanation for either the Messianic predictions or the resurrection, let alone both by the same person.

Jesus’ miracles were witnessed by many and were documented redundantly for additional corroboration. He was seen by at least 500 people after His resurrection. He was seen ascending into heaven. His transfiguration was seen by Peter, James, and John. His wisdom in dealing with many circumstances was astounding. He never promoted Himself or His miracles. C. S. Lewis stated that He couldn’t have just been a good teacher. He was either a liar, lunatic, or Lord. He didn’t even come close to meeting the profile of a liar or lunatic, so He had to be God.

Jesus Christ also supported the truth of the Old Testament and quoted it many times. Consequently, with Jesus Christ, we have an eyewitness to the truth of the Old Testament. This gives credibility to the creation account and God’s interaction with man. The entire Old Testament account is about how God is trying to have a relationship with man while man is separating himself from God by sin. It tells how God is long-suffering and merciful and ultimately how God sent His Son to die for our sins so God could ultimately have a relationship with us.

God’s interaction with man in the Old Testament was often and powerful. Some of the main interactions included Adam, Cain, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, the Israelites, the prophets, and the kings. In addition to Jesus’ testimony to the truth of the Old Testament, ancient manuscripts, archaeology, and internal consistency also testify to its truth. Consequently, much direct evidence including eyewitness accounts and indirect evidence corroborate the existence of God and the truth of the Bible.

Now does that mean everyone here will read that and believe now. Definitely not, depending on the calvinist or armenian approach you may not have the choice. God may decide for you and your free will may mean nothing in regards to this. Or you may have free will but since God is all knowing then your decision is already understood and known by God.

Yes as you can see I am a believer and think there are plenty of reasons to believe in Christ as our redeemer. I honestly do not think anybody is getting saved based on this post or any posts on these forums. I see people say that you find God when your sick, on your death bed, etc.. but it is quite obvious a lot of healthy individuals find Christ because of Gods irresistable Grace, and at a time when it is revealed they accept. Each of you will have true opportunities to accept, some will some will not that is just a fact of this life. I hope each one of you make the best decision when the time comes. Be it today or later in life.

Everyone enjoy their day and pick up your guitar and play for at least 2 hours today.

 

[Sharpie]

And you have the same amount of people still talking about Hamlet, Atilla the hun,Leif ericson, any Greek mythology, Icabod crane, Ebanezer Scrooge or any other figure that was written in any form of literature.

Actually, the bible was the first printed book and remains to this day a #1 best seller.

I thought the Diamond Sutra was believed to be the first printed book. Its the oldest discovered text isn't it?

 

[Plexihacker]

Yes, I do!

First, if you don't think there is a god then I submit that you must ask yourself if you believe you actually have a "soul" inside your body - one responsible for your consciousness and thought. Or, do you believe you are no more than a mere walking lump of protoplasm? As for me, I can "feel" my soul as I sit here.

If there truly is such a thing as a soul or ghost inside each of us, then there must be a God that has created us and we are much more than a walking slug with no thought or purpose. At least that is how I try to logically analyze the subject. YMMV.

And I may be in the minority but I believe Darwin was an IDIOT!!! How can an animal "decide" it wants stereo vision, hearing, wings, etc.? How did the first living thing decide it needed a circulatory system, lungs to oxygenate said blood system, a digestive system, and means to reproduce all at once before it died? If you can't look at all living things and see a brilliant and grand design than I don't know what to say to you.

But if I'm wrong, then it doesn't matter once I die. If you don't believe in a true Creator, then what happens after you die and you find out you're wrong? I wish you would error on the side of caution, if not by the logic of the aforementioned reasonings in the paragraphs above. I wish you the best in your search for truth in this amazing universe and our short but wonderful lives.

 

[bill]

Give Johnny Cash's life a quick scan. He is a great example of a man who as a musician was lost in a downhill run of drugs and booze. When he converted to christianity his looks even changed. George Foreman another good example. The proof is in the pudding.