fortin evil pumpkin, seems like a really good deal (ie price

[engage757]

"Sputtered out rumors", as has just been proven, is about all there is at this point.


Music industry is like a swimming pool, all the noise comes from the shallow end. Just remember I said that last week too, on my return to forum life. I haven't been disappointed yet. Truly enjoying this, but, it's going to have to be going back to work soon for me unfortunately. I have enjoyed this immensely though.

 

[novosibir]

"Sputtered out rumors", as has just been proven, is about all there is at this point.

Once again, Mr. confusion sprayer par excellence:


Ok here we go and I've been thinking about posting the following at all a few days, but the world needs the truth and lies do have short legs, as we all already know.

No it's not ONLY the Bite & Punch circuit what he ripped off of my intellectual properties.
'Only this' maybe I even could have forgiven him?
But it's much more, way much more what he's ripped off of my circuits.

To be finally concrete in this manner...

... the circuit of his NATAS is a 100% rip off of the DINO 939 I've built for him back in 2007

He's stripped down the DINO to the California & Scream channels, has omitted the British channel, has 'economized' the SRV mode of the California channel and has merely added a Send Level control to the FX loop section - and already he's been done. Nothing - in words: NOTHING - of his NATAS circuit has emanated off his own brain.

The only what he's done different in the circuit is, that he's swapped a few part's values.
But the funny thing is, that I've especially after his demands at that time back in 2007 have choosen some part's values slightly different from those, which I usually use by building my DINO amps. And he has adopted these few unusual part's values in his NATAS

By coincidence I've had a NATAS on my bench a while ago and the customer left me the amp for 2 days, so that I could do my analysis.
All what I've said above I can proof anytime, because I also took enough HiQ photos of the inside of the partially disassembled NATAS
I don't send these photos around as well as I don't forward the schematic of this NATAS, which I've drawn by myself...
... but everybody who is interested and wants to come by to my shop anytime can have a look onto this all.

Sure the NATAS by far doesn't reach the sound performance of a DINO and that's caused by several reasons:

- his circuit is on a PCB while the DINO's circuit is on an eyelet board
- it's a different arrangement of the components on the DINO's board with wider spaces between them
- he's using different component's brands in respect to the DINO
- his lead dress, the routing of the cables is way different to the lead dress inside the DINO
- it's obvious to me, that he can't have much experience with that form of current, which isn't floating inside of components & cables
- he doesn't use NOS preamp & poweramp tubes
- and last but not least, his output transformer is in no way comparable to the DINO's output transformer

I guess (means, that I don't know definitely), that his Bones amp is nothing else than a stripped down DINO, remaining just the British channel
And moreover I guess, that his Evil Pumpkin isn't much other, than a revised NATAS

Once Joe Delaney of Randall named him "The Undisputed Master Of High Gain"
After knowing that all finally I only can name him "The Undisputed Master Of Plagiarism"


You've said yourself before, that flying isn't too expensive anymore.
Take a plane to Nuremberg and come to my house for a visit!
Then you can convince yourself about all I've said above - this is bullet proof!

 

[engage757]

You'll be fine Larry. If you spent more time building amps and less time talking, maybe you would sell more of them, and not have all this time to spend on forums looking for a little attention.

What is your end game here? You aren't going to get anywhere with anything. You haven't gained anything from 15 years of this nonsense. It started on the Metro boards and those guys have laughed you off it too. SHouldn't you be trying to deliver amps to your customers and getting off the internet? I mean, for the love of Satan, you don't even know the proper timeline of Mike's amps in your statement above and you have already been caught accusing another guy of building. You know nothing. Go build some amps and stop talking so much. People have literally died waiting for your amps after paying for them and you ghosting them. All the time in the world to talk, no time to actually build and deliver product. You are feeling justified because 3 guys are listening to you, and none of those people will ever buy your amps anyway. Well done. Thousands of views from this thread and at least 60 emails now about the EVIL PUMPKIN. Please, keep going! I appreciate it. Every time you and your incredibly small batch of haters come onto threads spewing nonsense, we sell more amps. Thank you for your support.

Here's another video of the EVIL PUMPKIN! Enjoy guys!

 

[novosibir]

You'll be fine Larry. If you spent more time building amps and less time talking, maybe you would sell more of them

What gave you the idea, that I want to build more amps and why should I want to sell more amps as I already do?
Money is ok, more money is still more ok, but... money isn't all & everything in this world.
There are so much other pleasures, worth to spend your time, even if you could during this (not really) lost time make some more money

 

[sleewell2]

no dog in the fight but larry you are coming off really pathetic right now. not the best look.

 

[novosibir]

no dog in the fight but larry you are coming off really pathetic right now. not the best look.

I can't understand, why someone who simply tries to bring a presumably on an omnipotence syndrome suffering guy, who's instantly trying to deviate of an obviously hurting theme back to the point is appearing to you as 'pathetic', but ok, it's your opinion. Stick with it, I don't dare with you.

 

[Mklane]

I gotta agree with sleewell2 having never heard of you or your amps until today. Not a fan of Fear Factory but wondering why Dino(along with Meshugga and Ola) went to Fortin to have amps built instaed of you(larry). Like I said before not really a big fan of the Fortin stuff either but seems like hes doing something right. Outside of Rig-talk (and 2 years ago everyone on Rig-Talk) is /was digging his stuff.

 

[napalmdeath]

I don't care about who's designs are borrowed, what amps are based on, etc. I do like the sound of the Cali, and the Evil Pumpkin. My problem is, the mystery of where the parts are sourced, the trannies, etc., for the price. The prices are ridiculous. Even the Randalls, (I like the Thrashers), are stupid high priced, knowing full-well they're built in China. But, that's Randall's stupidity, which I fully believe shot themselves in the foot. They're hurting, there's no doubt. I expect them to go out of business. SOON.

I'll probably never own a Fortin amp, because I refuse to pay the prices. But then, even with knowing the quality, attention to detail, and the care taken into the Friedmans, they're a little north of ridiculous prices too, (minus the JJ JR, Runts, and mini DS).

 

[novosibir]

Ok Mr. Omnipotence, I've spent some effort, especially for you, for the undisputed press officer of the Fortin syndicate:

What is your end game here?

You named it, so guess it!

It started on the Metro boards and those guys have laughed you off it too.

You've obviously never read on the Metroamp board?
Or you're simply trying to dimp all my credits from there into dirty mud?
If this is your only remaining weapon, then I see you on kindergarden level and then in my eyes you're a very deplorable poor boy.

SHouldn't you be trying to deliver amps to your customers and getting off the internet?

You're sounding like my Mum (RIP) about 50 years ago. Does this mirror your education?

... and you have already been caught accusing another guy of building.

Caught? You're so friendly to me. I've been tarret and featherd - in your dreams, after your prayers have been heard of natas, oh sorry, of satan.

Go build some amps and stop talking so much.

Who are you, thinking to be big enough, giving me advices?
Keep in mind, you maybe are the chief of another gang, or name it army, but you're not my chief...
... so better close your lips... gently.

People have literally died waiting for your amps after paying for them and you ghosting them.

... and have been happy like kids on Easter and Chrismas at once after getting it.
Not every amp builder can claim this about his customers

All the time in the world to talk, no time to actually build and deliver product.

You've recurred yourself, so once again, but in other words, that maybe even you can finally understand this:
It's only up to myself, WHEN I'm doing WHAT and WHY.

You are feeling justified because...

Are you a medium? Or how can it be, that you know, what I'm feeling?

3 guys are listening to you, and none of those people will ever buy your amps anyway.

Are you able to differ things?
Ok I can imagine, that there are people out there, who'd never spend time & energy, if there's no chance to, that it will pay back in money.
But believe me, I'm different of those and I'm proud on this.

Thousands of views from this thread and at least 60 emails now about the EVIL PUMPKIN. Please, keep going! I appreciate it.

Do you know a good hair dresser? If so, then tell it to him!
Theirs job is, to believe such nonsense (one of your favorite words) and only besides they also are cutting hair.

Every time you and your incredibly small batch of haters come onto threads spewing nonsense, we sell more amps. Thank you for your support.

Same as before. Hair dresser

 

[Fitrocker33]

Reading this thread is awkwardness akin to watching daddy hit mommy at the dinner table and everybody continues eating silently trying to pretend like it didnt just happen.

 

[Meeotch]

I have to ask, as I have looked into patents before...why do amp builders not patent their circuits? Is there something about it that either makes it impossible or unrealistic? I have to believe this has been thought of before, so I must be missing something. But it seems like it would solve the issues being discussed here.

If I criticize either side of the coin right now, I will certainly be argued with and dismissed, so I'll tread carefully. Firstly, this thread has made me think twice about buying another Fortin product. I own a Zuul which is stellar. Apparently it was copied. I also bought a Cali, which had the best mids I've ever heard. I sold it because it wasn't quite for me. I thought this was just Fortin's take on a Jose mod, but I'm probably wrong. Who the fuck knows. If it is true that Mike straight up copied Larry's amps, and then started a business to sell copies, that's lame as hell. But is it illegal? And as has been mentioned, haven't other builders done this too? Isn't the Ceriatone Gargoyle a copy of the Meshuggah? Sorry, I could be way off.

Secondly, this thread has made me think twice about ordering one of Larry's amps. Not that I have $6k for an amp to begin with, but the conversation has me feeling torn. I get it, Larry can behave however he wants on the forum. He'll have all the orders he needs, and will continue to produce the most well made and best sounding amps on the planet. I just wish there could be more class in this conversation from both sides. Namecalling, getting super defensive, it turns me off from both builders. I understand the emotions, but there's a way to be professional about the issues at hand and I'd say Fortin gets a solid F, while Larry is barely passing. I know that neither of you need my business, and neither of you are obliged to accept my views. But as someone who's a huge fan of epic tone, I'm disappointed to have this glimpse of personalities behind some of the best names in the industry.

I've heard that both Mike and Larry are classy guys, which is why this thread is so confusing to me.

 

[the4thlast1]

I have to ask, as I have looked into patents before...why do amp builders not patent their circuits? Is there something about it that either makes it impossible or unrealistic? I have to believe this has been thought of before, so I must be missing something. But it seems like it would solve the issues being discussed here.

If I criticize either side of the coin right now, I will be certainly be argued with and dismissed, so I'll tread carefully. Firstly, this thread has made me think twice about buying another Fortin product. I own a Zuul which is stellar. Apparently it was copied. I also bought a Cali, which had the best mids I've ever heard. I sold it because it wasn't quite for me. I thought this was just Fortin's take on a Jose mod, but I'm probably wrong. Who the fuck knows. If it is true that Mike straight up copied Larry's amps, and then started a business to sell copies, that's lame as hell. But is it illegal? And as has been mentioned, haven't other builders done this too? Isn't the Ceriatone Gargoyle a copy of the Meshuggah? Sorry, I could be way off.

Secondly, this thread has made me think twice about ordering one of Larry's amps. Not that I have $6k for an amp to begin with, but the conversation has me feeling torn. I get it, Larry can behave however he wants on the forum. He'll have all the orders he needs, and will continue to produce the most well made and best sounding amps on the planet. I just wish there could be more class in this conversation from both sides. Namecalling, getting super defensive, it turns me off from both builders. I understand the emotions, but there's a way to be professional about the issues at hand and I'd say Fortin gets a solid F, while Larry is barely passing. I know that neither of you need my business, and neither of you are obliged to accept my views. But as someone who's a huge fan of epic tone, I'm disappointed to have this glimpse of personalities behind some of the best names in the industry.

I've heard that both Mike and Larry are classy guys, which is why this thread is so confusing to me.

This is a good point.... We all know that if you design something that is actually original that someone else will eventually rebrand it and sell it as there own (Not saying that is right or wrong to do). Unless you legally protect your design there is only so much crying you can do about it that people are going to want to listen to. Personally I am surprised to hear that Mike directly copied an amp without putting his own different spin on it that mixes in his own ideas and borrows from other designs as well. I mean that's what we all do when we write a song right, we copy and mix all of our influences up together from what we have learned and heard in the past. Now a direct replica of someone else material is a different thing, like the Ceriatone amps, Nik the owner of Ceriatone doesn't hide the fact that his amps are a rebranding of someone else's design with only very slight changes. We were all under the impression that the Natas was a unique new design and not a direct copy of something else (If that is actually the truth or not I don't know). It would probably make Larrys "case" more valid if he posted the schematics of his amp and the Natas.

 

[novosibir]

It would probably make Larrys "case" more valid if he posted the schematics of his amp and the Natas.

What would happen, if I put my DINO schematic publicly into the web?
You can regard this as my life work, which I've developed from 1988 to 1992 and have spent hundrets of (not paid) hours with literally spoken blood, sweat & tears into it, until it's been a properly and convincingly thing. Then later again hundrets of hours went into it as I've further developed it uncounted times.

As soon as I put it into the web, hundrets or thousands not only DIY but also more or less professional amp builders simply would adopt it w/o any effort.

What then? Should I simply leave it go then and start with developing a completely new seminal amp design?

Maybe now you can empathize, what I've felt after analyzing the NATAS?

Maybe now you can empathize, what I've felt after I've recalled, that MF has introduced himself simply as an enthusiastic guitar player and a frenetic gear head and this over several years of emailing back & forth w/o mentioning not once not one word, that he's modding amps already and that he's planning to found his own amp company.

I've answered him to hundrets of his always very detailled technical questions and have spent a lot of time for answering extensively.

The moment as I've recognized, that he's ruthless copied my DINO circuit at 100% has been like I've just heard, that some guy has raped my own daughter.

He better should care about, that he'd never cross my way in real life, because as soon as nobody else is around anymore it could happen, that then I can't ignore him any longer.

 

[Mailman1971]

For people to say ‘Larry spend more time on amps and less off the Internet...’
Is absurd.
I’ve been on here for 12 years.
He’s ever if ever RARELY POSTS!
Guy is just backing up his product.
And he’s getting hassled for it.
Let the truth be heard. I’ve never spoke to Larry.
Spoke to Mike a few times. So I got no dog in the fight.
This is a free forum. Anyone can speak their peace. So carry on folks!
I’m just speaking ‘my peace’

 

[DeathbyButterslax]

For people to say ‘Larry spend more time on amps and less off the Internet...’
Is absurd.
I’ve been on here for 12 years.
He’s ever if ever RARELY POSTS!
Guy is just backing up his product.
And he’s getting hassled for it.
Let the truth be heard. I’ve never spoke to Larry.
Spoke to Mike a few times. So I got no dog in the fight.
This is a free forum. Anyone can speak their peace. So carry on folks!
I’m just speaking ‘my peace’

I agree the guy is a legend, why bash Larry?

 

[wIsEbLooD]

I have a cali that Mike did when he first came on here modding amps, and ironically it has the resistors and caps blacked out. lol
Many people have known for years that all his stuff is ripped from others.
Larry had much respect on the metro board as I recall.
This Zack guy is an asshole. Even if all Mike's stuff was original I would have no part of it with this fool as the spokesman.

 

[engage757]

You will all be fine. I promise. Wait until someday, you have random internet people that attack you constantly. No worries you will get it then. Same as every other company has dudes doing the same thing. Just how it goes. People attacking that have to have credibility because they are on a forum, other people defend, other people make decisions on which side they are on and the cycle continues. Every company in m.i. goes through it, and the main difference is, most just don't care enough to respond. For me, I don't mind calling out nonsense when I see it. It really doesn't bother me what people on the internet make up about me. I actually keep a list of the nonsense people have said about me over the years to shot friends. The haters dont bother me at all, but I do enjoy reminding them of their nonsense. Play whatever you like, but know, that despite the 3-4-5 haters, they can spend all the time they want on it, but we are still here, and scaling as a company. I don't care if you like me. I deal with artists. Sometimes I choose to come into forums where I have been a member for years and address nonsense. Hope you guys have a great night and thanks for the support!

 

[GuitarGoat]

I have to ask, as I have looked into patents before...why do amp builders not patent their circuits? Is there something about it that either makes it impossible or unrealistic? I have to believe this has been thought of before, so I must be missing something. But it seems like it would solve the issues being discussed here.

At this point, you’d have to come up with a very novel circuit to get a patent. I know Mesa/Boogie has a lot of patents on different circuits (master volume I think, solo control for sure, etc.) but I’m not even sure those would be enforceable because there’s so much in the prior art at this point. So it’d be difficult to get a patent and if you tried to enforce it, it might get thrown out anyway. One way to protect your IP in this area could be by keeping your circuit a trade secret, but from my understanding, that has to be kept a secret, so unless you’re epoxying the board and keeping it a secret, your IP is not protected from a legal standpoint. I’m not as familiar with all the details on trade secrets and I’m not sure if it’s the same outside of the USA.

What we’re looking at here is more if the full circuit is a full-on copy. It might not be ethical but I don’t believe it’s illegal. That’s even if the circuit is copied part for part like we’re talking about here...I’m not sure why anyone has said there’s proof there and it’s a fact.

 

[jimyrez]

I have a cali that Mike did when he first came on here modding amps, and ironically it has the resistors and caps blacked out. lol
Many people have known for years that all his stuff is ripped from others.
Larry had much respect on the metro board as I recall.
This Zack guy is an asshole. Even if all Mike's stuff was original I would have no part of it with this fool as the spokesman.

 

[novosibir]

I have to ask, as I have looked into patents before...why do amp builders not patent their circuits? Is there something about it that either makes it impossible or unrealistic?

To register a patent isn't expensive, it's just a lot of paperwork.
But after it's registered, then not only the schematic, but also the entire description about the correlations within the schem is publicly.
Everybody from anywhere around the world can step onto the patent office's website, to check & download your complete paperwork.
Especially the Chinese employ huge staffs only watching all & everything, what's been registered new and what of it might be interesting, to then forward their findings to the industry.
They - and not only the Chinese - then unabashed violate your patent and start building everything, what might be successful and profitable.

Then it's up to you to figure out, who's infringed your patent and then also it's up to you, to pay up front lawyers and expert witnesses, to bring it to the court at all.
And this dirty game you'd have to play in Europe, in China, in the USA and who knows, in which else other countries additional.

Such lawsuits usually are going over two years or still more - in the meantime the infringing company maybe doesn't exist anymore, or simply has changed the responsible staff and at the end of the day (after i.e. two years) you've lost 20,000 or even 30,000 US$ which never will come back to you.

There's a reason, why HAD has gooped all his circuits.
And that Randy Smith is registering almost each electronic fart presumably is caused by his monumental ego?