FORTIN's Evil Pumpkin – Made in China?

[maddnotez]

I do have about 50 highly detailled photos of the entire circuit of the particular DINO Mike Fortin got from me back in 2007

I do have almost 50 highly detailled photos of the entire circuit of the Randall Satan, most of it taken with removed PCB's and light below these, to display each trace.

And I do have more than 50 highly detailled photos of the entire circuit of the Fortin NATAS, most of it as well taken with removed PCB and light below it, to display each trace.

Moreover I've drawn the complete schematics of both amps and of corse I do have the schematic of the particular DINO which went to Mike.

Any EE of the responsible authority or any authorized expert for electronics can proof by attorney of the court, that Mike has plagiarized both amps completely of the DINO

No I haven't patented any of my circuits, but this isn't required to sue Mike due to stealing the intellectual properties of someone other for commercial use.

In all honesty, if this is all true I would push forward. Especially if you have an attorney willing to fight and you have the extra money to burn to do it.

If he stole your work that would be enough for me to try to sue, if you have all that proof. On top of that what really makes me shake my head is that Fortin sent an attorney after a very small pedal maker for cloning and selling the Fortin 33. Which BTW was stolen from TC electronics.

THAT is what I find unbelievable. I am not saying Fortin can't make some good stuff, he can obviously make some killer sounds and nice amps BUT what I am saying is that he steals other peoples circuits and then has the balls to threaten with attorneys when someone else clones his pedal (That he stole to begin with) THAT takes either a HUGE set of balls or complete stupidity in my humble opinion. Hypocrisy.

 

[novosibir]

With a commercial/business license and business ID, Intellectual property rights have to be followed. Joe Shmoe in his/her basement can’t claim it as it has to be for commercial basis only from what I understand. IP is something that as an engineer I have to protect within my employer and externally as well. Stolen IP is grounds for a lawsuit and punishment if you’re infringements warrant review by the IP owner.

Of corse I do have all you've mentioned. Business license, business ID, Custom's ID, tax number, permission of the government to hand or industrial build & sell electronic gear, since I don't have a high school degree as an EE - what else is required?

Sounds like Larry isn’t going to persue a lawsuit so why stir the pot? Put your money where your mouth is otherwise you too can be sued for defamation.

You're definitely mistaken

Go get em Larry

What I've definitely decided now.

Just got off the phone with that attorney and it looks very very successfully for me with sueing MF
He once again confirmed, that a patent or only a pending patent isn't required, since IP is protected by law.
We spoke about the proofs I already have and he confirmed, that the amps in real aren't required, if the photos are detailled enough - and they are
And...
... he still has had a terrific idea, or rather suggestion:

If there are some more amp or pedal builder around, who feel ripped of MF and who do have enough proof, then they can jump onto the same train against MF
If then we'd go side by side against MF, this would save some costs (if there's a risk at all) for each AND would increase the burdon of proof agains MF

Hello out there - is there someone, who also has been ripped of his IP and who has the balls, to step in for a collective lawsuit?

If so, then please email me.

 

[novosibir]

And here a message especially addressed to Mike Fortin:

Your soldiers of your Fortin Army have been a bit too much badmouthing, what made me angry.

Hence the ball now is rolling and can't be stopped anymore.

 

[Kordoba]

I don't know about you guys but this thread has me wanting to watch Krull... haven't seen that movie in like 30+ years Ok carry on RT

Wow I remember going to Wakiki II to see that movie- it really sucked
A five bladed boomerang doesn't really seem like a good idea.....

Totally

I had a Krull video game cartridge for my Atari 2600.

It sucked a big fat rod.

 

[MrDowntown]

I don't know about you guys but this thread has me wanting to watch Krull... haven't seen that movie in like 30+ years Ok carry on RT

Wow I remember going to Wakiki II to see that movie- it really sucked
A five bladed boomerang doesn't really seem like a good idea.....

Totally

I had a Krull video game cartridge for my Atari 2600.

It sucked a big fat rod.

thanks bud....CHEEZ-IT sludge is now all over my desk/work station...

 

[MrDowntown]

I don't know about you guys but this thread has me wanting to watch Krull... haven't seen that movie in like 30+ years Ok carry on RT

Wow I remember going to Wakiki II to see that movie- it really sucked
A five bladed boomerang doesn't really seem like a good idea.....

Totally

I had a Krull video game cartridge for my Atari 2600.

It sucked a big fat rod.

thanks bud....CHEEZ-IT sludge is now all over my desk/work station...

 

[Monkey Man]

LOL Most of the 2600 cartridges sucked big-time, but we still bought 'em and played... but hated them. I felt robbed considering what was available in the arcades.

 

[Kordoba]

As bad as it was, it still wasn't ET bad. That game brought me to a place I never want to return.

A world of pure unbridled anger.

 

[Racerxrated]

I do have about 50 highly detailled photos of the entire circuit of the particular DINO Mike Fortin got from me back in 2007

I do have almost 50 highly detailled photos of the entire circuit of the Randall Satan, most of it taken with removed PCB's and light below these, to display each trace.

And I do have more than 50 highly detailled photos of the entire circuit of the Fortin NATAS, most of it as well taken with removed PCB and light below it, to display each trace.

Moreover I've drawn the complete schematics of both amps and of corse I do have the schematic of the particular DINO which went to Mike.

Any EE of the responsible authority or any authorized expert for electronics can proof by attorney of the court, that Mike has plagiarized both amps completely of the DINO

No I haven't patented any of my circuits, but this isn't required to sue Mike due to stealing the intellectual properties of someone other for commercial use.

In all honesty, if this is all true I would push forward. Especially if you have an attorney willing to fight and you have the extra money to burn to do it.

If he stole your work that would be enough for me to try to sue, if you have all that proof. On top of that what really makes me shake my head is that Fortin sent an attorney after a very small pedal maker for cloning and selling the Fortin 33. Which BTW was stolen from TC electronics.

THAT is what I find unbelievable. I am not saying Fortin can't make some good stuff, he can obviously make some killer sounds and nice amps BUT what I am saying is that he steals other peoples circuits and then has the balls to threaten with attorneys when someone else clones his pedal (That he stole to begin with) THAT takes either a HUGE set of balls or complete stupidity in my humble opinion. Hypocrisy.

Wow. That’s rich.
Unbelievable. Can’t make that shit up.

 

[Racerxrated]

With a commercial/business license and business ID, Intellectual property rights have to be followed. Joe Shmoe in his/her basement can’t claim it as it has to be for commercial basis only from what I understand. IP is something that as an engineer I have to protect within my employer and externally as well. Stolen IP is grounds for a lawsuit and punishment if you’re infringements warrant review by the IP owner.

Of corse I do have all you've mentioned. Business license, business ID, Custom's ID, tax number, permission of the government to hand or industrial build & sell electronic gear, since I don't have a high school degree as an EE - what else is required?

Sounds like Larry isn’t going to persue a lawsuit so why stir the pot? Put your money where your mouth is otherwise you too can be sued for defamation.

You're definitely mistaken

Go get em Larry

What I've definitely decided now.

Just got off the phone with that attorney and it looks very very successfully for me with sueing MF
He once again confirmed, that a patent or only a pending patent isn't required, since IP is protected by law.
We spoke about the proofs I already have and he confirmed, that the amps in real aren't required, if the photos are detailled enough - and they are
And...
... he still has had a terrific idea, or rather suggestion:

If there are some more amp or pedal builder around, who feel ripped of MF and who do have enough proof, then they can jump onto the same train against MF
If then we'd go side by side against MF, this would save some costs (if there's a risk at all) for each AND would increase the burdon of proof agains MF

Hello out there - is there someone, who also has been ripped of his IP and who has the balls, to step in for a collective lawsuit?

If so, then please email me.

From what I’ve heard..Mr Steavens (Poundcake) and Mr Elan (Metalhead) should consider participating.

 

[maddnotez]

I don't know about you guys but this thread has me wanting to watch Krull... haven't seen that movie in like 30+ years Ok carry on RT

Wow I remember going to Wakiki II to see that movie- it really sucked
A five bladed boomerang doesn't really seem like a good idea.....

Totally

I had a Krull video game cartridge for my Atari 2600.

It sucked a big fat rod.

thanks bud....CHEEZ-IT sludge is now all over my desk/work station...

Better than Mayonnaise on your mic boom.

 

[Monkey Man]

... or on your jocks.

As bad as it was, it still wasn't ET bad. That game brought me to a place I never want to return.

A world of pure unbridled anger.

Do you remember the awesome pictures that were used to advertise the cartridges? One only had to look at a cover pic and then the TV screen to feel robbed.

 

[Beyond Black]

I don't know about you guys but this thread has me wanting to watch Krull... haven't seen that movie in like 30+ years Ok carry on RT

Wow I remember going to Wakiki II to see that movie- it really sucked
A five bladed boomerang doesn't really seem like a good idea.....

Totally

I had a Krull video game cartridge for my Atari 2600.

It sucked a big fat rod.

Just like our Krull...

 

[rstites]

I’ll let court decide who’s right and who’s wrong, but I can tell you right now if Mike copied Larry’s work and Larry decides to sue for IP infringement, I hope Mike has all of the engineering documentation to back his research. Larry had a finished design well before Mike even started his business. Just my 0.02.

Wouldn’t you need IP protection to even have a case to sue? You’re not getting a utility patent on a guitar amp without super narrow claims, design patent maybe but the amps don’t look the same so there probably wouldn’t be claims there that the Fortin amps would be infringing upon. I’m not as familiar with trademarks and copyrights, but I don’t see how that’d work unless the PCBA artwork was copied, but Larry has talked about how he uses eyelet boards instead of PCBs so that’s out the window. Seems to me like the trade secrets (the circuit) weren’t protected, so here we are...

That's my understanding. I am an engineer, not a lawyer. I fill out paperwork for IP as told, so I have a passing familiarity with it but am far from an expert. (I also have registered copyrights on numerous papers and songs, but those work differently......and again, I just fill out the paperwork that I'm supposed to! )

My understanding is that circuits are only protected by patent if you register it. This is a PIA so we only do it for things with a pretty high value. Copyright applies to the specific schematic drawing, but not the physical circuit. (It does seem like it'd apply to a PCB if that were applicable.) Trademark would apply to the physical appearance of the amps, but like patent it only applies if registered.

I'd note that design patents (before 2015) only have a term of 15 years, so if someone registered a design patent anytime before 2005, it would be in the public domain now. This is for the US, but I believe we've been in-line with international law on this since the mid 90's. Basically, I don't think anything patent-related could possibly be applicable. I can rebuild any unique circuit from the 80's or 90's freely at this point. They're fair game.

 

[Thunkful]

.

 

[Markedman]

If Larry were to take Mike to court he wouldn't be happy at the end of everything. If he were to win big, what's that? Enough to cover all the wasted time and energy? I think not but I've seen it all when it comes to court cases and what people will do in vain and spite.

Mike is just doing what he needs to do in order to make a living. Larry could expand his operation to make more headaches along with more amps but he chooses to just make money and leave the headache part of business to those who dare.

So, are those Evil pumpkins made in China and assembled in U.K.?

 

[skullfxr]

If Larry were to take Mike to court he wouldn't be happy at the end of everything. If he were to win big, what's that? Enough to cover all the wasted time and energy? I think not but I've seen it all when it comes to court cases and what people will do in vain and spite.

Mike is just doing what he needs to do in order to make a living. Larry could expand his operation to make more headaches along with more amps but he chooses to just make money and leave the headache part of business to those who dare.

So, are those Evil pumpkins made in China and assembled in U.K.?

Exactly this.

Too bad he could not at least do some form of cease and desist so Fortin could not continue.

But again most court cases are out of spite (my divorce ahem). That goes nowhere. It doesn't seem like Larry is looking for a cash grab.

This is not attacking but I am curious of the end game you have in mind. Larry, what would you happy? If the Fortins said designed by Larry on them? Or if there was a cease and desist, meaning Fortin would have to stop producing amps based on your designs? Royalties?

Again this is from a bystander point of view.

 

[Kordoba]

... or on your jocks.

As bad as it was, it still wasn't ET bad. That game brought me to a place I never want to return.

A world of pure unbridled anger.

Do you remember the awesome pictures that were used to advertise the cartridges? One only had to look at a cover pic and then the TV screen to feel robbed.

Yes sir!

 

[JerEvil]

That's my understanding. I am an engineer, not a lawyer. I fill out paperwork for IP as told, so I have a passing familiarity with it but am far from an expert. (I also have registered copyrights on numerous papers and songs, but those work differently......and again, I just fill out the paperwork that I'm supposed to! )

My understanding is that circuits are only protected by patent if you register it. This is a PIA so we only do it for things with a pretty high value. Copyright applies to the specific schematic drawing, but not the physical circuit. (It does seem like it'd apply to a PCB if that were applicable.) Trademark would apply to the physical appearance of the amps, but like patent it only applies if registered.

I'd note that design patents (before 2015) only have a term of 15 years, so if someone registered a design patent anytime before 2005, it would be in the public domain now. This is for the US, but I believe we've been in-line with international law on this since the mid 90's. Basically, I don't think anything patent-related could possibly be applicable. I can rebuild any unique circuit from the 80's or 90's freely at this point. They're fair game.

This is what it boils down to. Patents are the mechanism by which you declare originality and exclusivity. It's the accepted way by which you establish that others can't reproduce your ideas. If it's not okay for others to use your ideas, you need to formally say so. Then in order to maintain that protection, you need to keep asserting exclusivity when others make something that infringes upon your IP.

What portions of a given amp are “special”? The tone stack? The input buffer? The control layout? Filtering? The materials in the trannies, or how they're wound? Anything special with the channel switching? Even among hundreds (or thousands) of commercial amp (and pedal) builders, there's a lot of sameness. Without patents how is anyone supposed to know? Hell, even gooping portions of the circuit at least shows an active measure to protect a trade secret. If it's not covered by patent or trademark or NDA, it's open season. We can argue all day about fairness and ethics, and then we’d all be in for some bad news about how things work in the real world in competitive industries.

So, the allegation here is that Fortin “stole” IP, the ownership of which Larry never formally asserted and didn’t previously value enough to protect? The only way this would ever see a court room is if an attorney thought Fortin's pockets were deep enough that he'd settle to avoid a costly court battle. Internet message boards have a low burden of proof. People here are already polarized based upon a limited amount of subjective information, and people with zero stake in it are emotionally engaged, after having heard only one side of the story. If Larry has any aspirations to pursue this outside a message board, he wouldn’t be talking about it openly, and especially being baited by Fortin loyalists. You won’t see Fortin chiming in here. In the real world, claims need to be made in a way that can withstand challenge and scrutiny of the other party, as well as the courts. Complaining on the internet is just complaining on the internet.

Even so, it sounds to me like Larry has bypassed every opportunity to protect his IP using proper channels, and this late in the game a court would probably view that as Larry having no IP claims, or at least having abandoned those claims. Without a patent or NDA or something similarly authoritative, any claim that anyone else knew an idea was unique and exclusive is anecdotal. What happens if Fortin claims he thought he was free to use it, as affirmed by the lack of NDA or patent? Now Larry wants to cash in on Fortin’s success, which is why this is only now happening years later? Just playing devil’s advocate; the vacuum created by not having a patent creates a lot of challenges for Larry. Even with a patent, years of neglect enforcing it can be enough to forfeit its protection. This seems like it was only ever about getting people riled up about Fortin. There’s no other play here.

We’ll never have an objective telling of the whole story in any case. Six of one, half a dozen of another.

Just my two cents.

Yeah I feel like you pretty much nailed it.

 

[ZEEGLER]

That's my understanding. I am an engineer, not a lawyer. I fill out paperwork for IP as told, so I have a passing familiarity with it but am far from an expert. (I also have registered copyrights on numerous papers and songs, but those work differently......and again, I just fill out the paperwork that I'm supposed to! )

My understanding is that circuits are only protected by patent if you register it. This is a PIA so we only do it for things with a pretty high value. Copyright applies to the specific schematic drawing, but not the physical circuit. (It does seem like it'd apply to a PCB if that were applicable.) Trademark would apply to the physical appearance of the amps, but like patent it only applies if registered.

I'd note that design patents (before 2015) only have a term of 15 years, so if someone registered a design patent anytime before 2005, it would be in the public domain now. This is for the US, but I believe we've been in-line with international law on this since the mid 90's. Basically, I don't think anything patent-related could possibly be applicable. I can rebuild any unique circuit from the 80's or 90's freely at this point. They're fair game.

This is what it boils down to. Patents are the mechanism by which you declare originality and exclusivity. It's the accepted way by which you establish that others can't reproduce your ideas. If it's not okay for others to use your ideas, you need to formally say so. Then in order to maintain that protection, you need to keep asserting exclusivity when others make something that infringes upon your IP.

What portions of a given amp are “special”? The tone stack? The input buffer? The control layout? Filtering? The materials in the trannies, or how they're wound? Anything special with the channel switching? Even among hundreds (or thousands) of commercial amp (and pedal) builders, there's a lot of sameness. Without patents how is anyone supposed to know? Hell, even gooping portions of the circuit at least shows an active measure to protect a trade secret. If it's not covered by patent or trademark or NDA, it's open season. We can argue all day about fairness and ethics, and then we’d all be in for some bad news about how things work in the real world in competitive industries.

So, the allegation here is that Fortin “stole” IP, the ownership of which Larry never formally asserted and didn’t previously value enough to protect? The only way this would ever see a court room is if an attorney thought Fortin's pockets were deep enough that he'd settle to avoid a costly court battle. Internet message boards have a low burden of proof. People here are already polarized based upon a limited amount of subjective information, and people with zero stake in it are emotionally engaged, after having heard only one side of the story. If Larry has any aspirations to pursue this outside a message board, he wouldn’t be talking about it openly, and especially being baited by Fortin loyalists. You won’t see Fortin chiming in here. In the real world, claims need to be made in a way that can withstand challenge and scrutiny of the other party, as well as the courts. Complaining on the internet is just complaining on the internet.

Even so, it sounds to me like Larry has bypassed every opportunity to protect his IP using proper channels, and this late in the game a court would probably view that as Larry having no IP claims, or at least having abandoned those claims. Without a patent or NDA or something similarly authoritative, any claim that anyone else knew an idea was unique and exclusive is anecdotal. What happens if Fortin claims he thought he was free to use it, as affirmed by the lack of NDA or patent? Now Larry wants to cash in on Fortin’s success, which is why this is only now happening years later? Just playing devil’s advocate; the vacuum created by not having a patent creates a lot of challenges for Larry. Even with a patent, years of neglect enforcing it can be enough to forfeit its protection. This seems like it was only ever about getting people riled up about Fortin. There’s no other play here.

We’ll never have an objective telling of the whole story in any case. Six of one, half a dozen of another.

Just my two cents.

Yeah I feel like you pretty much nailed it.

Yup. Pretty much how it is.