FORTIN's Evil Pumpkin – Made in China?

[lester]

Fortin has found a niche in offering things that are more or less unavailable.

It's pretty simple again Larry...deliver some amps.
A year and a half to three years wait...gtfo.
Along with that 2 grand you stole from Stevek try cramming up your ass some of them NOS Tungsram's you're hoarding too.
Fucking two years wait while he's dickin around with cat mourning, sleeping in, forums, lawyers and who knows what else.
Billy, don't try to help him from blowing his cash on attorneys. It seems just about right.

Oh look, a buddy of 'Krull'....from the OT. Figures. Nice classy move there, bringing up the Steve K thing which has NOTHING to do with Fortin stealing designs for his 'original' circuits. Nice distraction.

I'll go slow so you MAYBE understand..

It has nothing to do with a wait time. No Fortin Fanboi is waiting in line for a Larry amp. Larry has enough customers, hence the 2 yr wait. No one says, "hey, instead of waiting in line for 2 yrs for a Larry I'll just buy a Fortin!" Why? Because no one knew until now(most people at least) that Fortin stole not only Larry's circuits, but Steavens, Elan, and numerous pedals as has already been mentioned. Fortin buyers aren't buying a Larry, and Larry buyers aren't buying a Fortin. Larry has all the customers he needs.

Nothing to do with delivering amps. Nothing. Get it?

I'll say it again...Larry is pissed because his circuits were blatantly copied, and produced as Fortin' OWN ORIGINAL CIRCUITS which is an outright fucking lie.
If you're ok with that that's your prerogative. Many others are not ok with this. Fortin is nothing more than a paint by numbers guy...NOTHING he has produced is original, every damn thing he sells is someone else's stolen circuit. He's a thief plain and simple.

Fortin has found a niche all right..a niche of the most blatant circuit thievery in recent history. Claiming every one as his. Thief and a liar.

Interesting and fitting that certain peeps here are ok with this. Looking at some of your posts here and elsewhere, I'm not surprised.

Are you out of your goddamn mind?

 

[alan67]

I had a Krull video game cartridge for my Atari 2600.

It sucked a big fat rod.

Hahaha... I remember the first time playing Combat on a 2600... man that was the shit For me though, hands down the best game to come from the Atari 2600 was Pitfall!

Warlords and Dragster were pretty good too

 

[scottosan]

So Mike didn't exactly break the law. But he uses unethical marketing practices by claiming electrical designs as his own creative work?

Kind of like Billy Blades, except that Billy straight up told everyone he copied others and then bragged about it

If Fortin and Zach had a lovechild, Billy Blades would be it

 

[WarHed]

Y'all need to forget about patents, design, trademarks and other registered forms of IP rights.
Copyright is what is relevant here. Copyright doesnt need to be registered before it's released to public and it's lifespan exists for the life of the author +50 years (term differs between countries).

If Larry has an original circuit drawing, and MF copied [a substantial part of] that circuit, then amps with that circuit in it could well be copyright infringement. Remedies include awarding damages, injections on business operations, handing over or destroying infringing stock etc etc
Look at Kim dotcom getting bent over a barrell because of his (alledged) pirated movie hosting. Courts take it pretty seriously even if you may not...

Mike is just doing what he needs to do in order to make a living.

?? No one forced him to copy circuits. He could have designed something of his own...

Anyway, may justice be served, whatever that ends up being.

 

[novosibir]

Copyright is what is relevant here. Copyright doesnt need to be registered before it's released to public and it's lifespan exists for the life of the author +50 years (term differs between countries).

If Larry has an original circuit drawing, and MF copied [a substantial part of] that circuit, then amps with that circuit in it could well be copyright infringement. Remedies include awarding damages, injections on business operations, handing over or destroying infringing stock etc etc

Thank you so much! You've hit the nail and it's that, about what my phone call to the US today has been

Ouch maybe I've again said too much with the sentence above?
Will hear it tomorrow, after "he" has read my posts again.

 

[GuitarGoat]

Wouldn’t you need IP protection to even have a case to sue? You’re not getting a utility patent on a guitar amp without super narrow claims, design patent maybe but the amps don’t look the same so there probably wouldn’t be claims there that the Fortin amps would be infringing upon. I’m not as familiar with trademarks and copyrights, but I don’t see how that’d work unless the PCBA artwork was copied, but Larry has talked about how he uses eyelet boards instead of PCBs so that’s out the window. Seems to me like the trade secrets (the circuit) weren’t protected, so here we are...

Over all the past years I thought exactly the same like you've said.
But the one attorney from USA who together with a colleague exclusively handles IP/Copyright/Trademark issues told me different.
Since yesterday I'm already intensely in touch with him via email & phone.

This whole made in China claim is interesting, but without merit IMO...seems like grasping at straws to me.

If this is your impression, then you haven't read my first post attentively

If that’s the case then, I really do hope it works out for you. If you’ve got the proof, then I hope you can do something to stop your IP was taken.

Regarding the made in China claim...all I’m saying is there’s some evidence that what you’re saying could be true, but PCBAs could be coming from elsewhere (as in not China) entirely. The transformers could be the only thing not from the UK or parts could sourced from all over. What you’re saying is totally plausible, but I think it’s more accurate to say there’s non-made in the UK transformers and PCB mounted jacks and pots in the amp. I’d be curious to take a peek inside if I ever get the chance and prove one way or the other!

 

[novosibir]

I’d be curious to take a peek inside if I ever get the chance and prove one way or the other!

I'd be curious as well - curious as hell.

But that all doubt could be liftet quite easy.

I've been the first one who's criticized and doubted it.
I think, I could be regarded as a tech expert.

Why don't they simply send me one amp over here, anyway it's not so far from the UK to Germany.
Then I'd simply could take a look around and inside the amp.

After this I definitely could confirm (or deny), that these amps aren't of chinese origin
And I'd be definitely upright and honest in this manner, absolutely neutral.

 

[WarHed]

Ouch maybe I've again said too much with the sentence above?

Nah, it is what it is.
Every copyright case is the same, first establish that you have an original copyright work, then establish an alleged infringement, then establish the causal link between the original and the alleged copy.
Copyright law actually gets a bit complex for electronic circuits, as it's the original drawing that is the copyright work and a physical electronic circuit may not infringe the original circuit diagram. Anyway, that's something for the evidence to dictate and the courts to decide.

There could be an outside chance of trade mark infringement for a false declaration origin maybe. Mention that to your IP lawyer if it hasnt already been discussed.

Anyway, Jose and Todd Langner are dead so unlikely they'll be any help as co-plantiffs. Only Elan and TC as mentioned...

 

[novosibir]

Thank you for the confirmation once again.

Anyway, Jose and Todd Langner are dead so unlikely they'll be any help as co-plantiffs. Only Elan and TC as mentioned...

I know Uli Behringer in person an do have all his contact details.
He's btw also the owner of Bugera Amps.
Since he presumably doesn't read this thread, after discussing this with "him" maybe I'll give Uli a call.
About Elan I've never heard before. They're producing home HiFi?

 

[crankyrayhanky]

If Larry to Fortin is like Gibson to Kiesel, Evil Pumpkins will go on sale next week after the cease and desist letter

 

[strungout82]

Thank you for the confirmation once again.

Anyway, Jose and Todd Langner are dead so unlikely they'll be any help as co-plantiffs. Only Elan and TC as mentioned...

I know Uli Behringer in person an do have all his contact details.
He's btw also the owner of Bugera Amps.
Since he presumably doesn't read this thread, after discussing this with "him" maybe I'll give Uli a call.
About Elan I've never heard before. They're producing home HiFi?

The mention of Uli Behringer in this case is cracking me up :-D The only person who should contact Uli for some advice is Mike Fortin himself. This made my day, thank you sir

 

[novosibir]

The only person who should contact Uli for some advice is Mike Fortin himself.

 

[tech21man]

Mr Larry, a couple of questions if you don't mind?


Would you say that NATAS/Satan is exactly lifted value for value from your amp?


I found the schematic and to me, the fortin NATAS is nothing more than a JCM 800 architecture to be exact the EL34world 2203 master volume lead JMP 100 watt schematic with a cathode follower driving two r/c filters before a 250K gain pot if I remember. Yes it has differences but the architecture is very evident.

Which is nothing special to be honest...at least for me.


Is your amp exactly the same schematic? Notice I don't really mention the differences vs the 2203 because there are some. However placing a tube dual band eq after the gamma network before a JCM style preamp is pretty much non-original to me and that is the way I see it in the Fortin preamp. People boost their amps every day! Mesa/boogie has a whole tonestack pre distortion to hande frequency response. Yeah driven from the plate...so lossy and no ideal but...Tight switches varying r/c filters after the first gain stage in so many amps etc...Check the thrasher by the way (drives them from the plate). I don't know if your amp has something that could hold up legaly as far as originality goes assuming it is the exact same but I won't be the one to decide it.



I mean, was it illegal for randall smith or whoever designed the rectifier for him to bias a 3rd stage with 39K and adjust the voltage divider afterwards to 330K/220K and use those plate resistors and cathode bypass on the next stage? Pretty much all soldano-ish stuff do variations on this logic.


Anyway, the thrasher actually differentiates that eq network and drives them from the plate and sequentially...the marshall architecture remains but they are different somewhat as far as values go. In this point, you had mentioned that, the dino that you sent to fortin had some non normal values to suit him? If he picked those up they are not evident to the natas. The voltage dividers are different vs the marshall for example, the stage before the dc follower is bypassed on the cathode but all of these are standard stuff that people have been doing for ages now. Oh the 10K bypassed with the kill switch is interesting. Again I've never seen a larry amp in person anyway or a schematic to compare just my somewhat crude oppinion on the natas/thrasher stuff.


If fortin answered for a garnett type filter well the thrasher does resemble it? I've never seen a garnett schematic. Would you be kind enough to desribe it?



To be honest...I don't see the real trouble. I mean, if I could built amps (I can't. disregard the nickname, my first amp was a tech21 and I still love the little bastard) standarized an amp design to consider it unique enough I'd definitely go the extra mile to patent the topology and value set, even providing tube stage gain, frequency response, harmonics mix, maybe input headroom whatever. Some materials and layout? Transformer materials? Whatever I felt made it unique.


As a result, if you can take legal action for your work being copyright infringement from fortin's point of view then why not drag him to court and take your pride back or what you are feel is hurt, or even compensation.
Participating in every thread or going like this...I leave it to you if this is the correct course. You have a very good reputation for your knowledge and kind nature on other forums you know.

But, again, I don't even think, that fortin's customers are larry customers. Bussiness model is different. The sound as you claim is different and superior to your product because of construction technique and materials/layour. So in the end it is not the same amp anyway. Quality wise, feature wise or sonically.

I have to remind you as well that in the old thread were you felt the dino was not miced/represented carefully you loved the fortin clips...you really did.


Let's assume that you feel that your bussiness is losing customers because of the fortin catalogue. I don't think it is the case just because, even aesthetics and target group points to different people to be honest and even if we accept it as given that ok, you are losing everybody who wants a larry and goes buy a fortin I sincerely think it is not the price that would drive them. Fortin amps are not cheap price wise by any means!!! They are not jet city level price wise or bugera or randall rd or laney ironheart. So if I wanted a Larry, I'd buy a larry same way that if I want a soldano and have the money I won't settle for something copying a part or the complete circuit but not being able to deliver the SAME result due to construction or whatever.


So even after that, let's say the cat is out of the bag, the schematics match and yes people come to know fortin amps (some of them) as cheaper larry knock offs. Even if you lost 100 clients (I sincerely think that this number is not going to come close to the truth or whatever)...sorry to inform you that you wouldn't be able to built 100 amps in time for them anyway. Is it the materials needed? The way you set a standard for your product? The way you like to live? (I work 10-12 hours a day or more and raise children, 6+ days a week, ...I like to read guitar stuff at 1:00 at night, the only hours I have free lol!). You know better. But building 15 amps per year would take you more than 10 years to actually materialize said orders, if you have the materials and provided you would finish up the orders you say have for the next 18 months or more?

And you are what 60+? Judging by the photo from you and pierro etc...


So, in my humble oppinion let it be. It's not worth it. You said what you had to say. You build a product that people come to you no matter the cost and with no cheap marketing vs other brands. Be happy in your life and your success...


If people find it more about larry amps because of this fortin case, only fortin has to lose not you in my oppinion. I'd let that be.


PS> I still see it as a tube eq boost in front a JCM preamp lol. Sorry, I don't know that much about amps but, that is what it is to me.

 

[novosibir]

@ tech21man

I don't answer those questions anymore publicly due to a certain reason, as you already know.

The only I can say is, that you're mistaken in so many points and that you can delete the Natas schem, what's floating around, since it's NOT a schem of a Natas how it's done in reality

 

[paulyc]

Surely the court of Rig-Talk will hold clout in a real courtroom right! I mean we have Ozz, Paulyc, jimmyrez and at least two others that were wronged by Fortins thin tone! Call all to the witness stand, we shall burn him at the stake! Seriously though good luck to Larry he's gonna need it. All this back and forth made me curious though and I grabbed a Satan120 for cheap this morning so maybe I'll be as pissed as these five dudes next week.

Because I mocked you for not having a dick to chop off ??? LOL Lighten up Francis.

 

[tech21man]

Mr Larry, a couple of questions if you don't mind?


Would you say that NATAS/Satan is exactly lifted value for value from your amp?


I found the schematic and to me, the fortin NATAS is nothing more than a JCM 800 architecture to be exact the EL34world 2203 master volume lead JMP 100 watt schematic with a cathode follower driving two r/c filters before a 250K gain pot if I remember. Yes it has differences but the architecture is very evident.

Which is nothing special to be honest...at least for me.


Is your amp exactly the same schematic? Notice I don't really mention the differences vs the 2203 because there are some. However placing a tube dual band eq after the gamma network before a JCM style preamp is pretty much non-original to me and that is the way I see it in the Fortin preamp. People boost their amps every day! Mesa/boogie has a whole tonestack pre distortion to hande frequency response. Yeah driven from the plate...so lossy and no ideal but...Tight switches varying r/c filters after the first gain stage in so many amps etc...Check the thrasher by the way (drives them from the plate). I don't know if your amp has something that could hold up legaly as far as originality goes assuming it is the exact same but I won't be the one to decide it.



I mean, was it illegal for randall smith or whoever designed the rectifier for him to bias a 3rd stage with 39K and adjust the voltage divider afterwards to 330K/220K and use those plate resistors and cathode bypass on the next stage? Pretty much all soldano-ish stuff do variations on this logic.


Anyway, the thrasher actually differentiates that eq network and drives them from the plate and sequentially...the marshall architecture remains but they are different somewhat as far as values go. In this point, you had mentioned that, the dino that you sent to fortin had some non normal values to suit him? If he picked those up they are not evident to the natas. The voltage dividers are different vs the marshall for example, the stage before the dc follower is bypassed on the cathode but all of these are standard stuff that people have been doing for ages now. Oh the 10K bypassed with the kill switch is interesting. Again I've never seen a larry amp in person anyway or a schematic to compare just my somewhat crude oppinion on the natas/thrasher stuff.


If fortin answered for a garnett type filter well the thrasher does resemble it? I've never seen a garnett schematic. Would you be kind enough to desribe it?



To be honest...I don't see the real trouble. I mean, if I could built amps (I can't. disregard the nickname, my first amp was a tech21 and I still love the little bastard) standarized an amp design to consider it unique enough I'd definitely go the extra mile to patent the topology and value set, even providing tube stage gain, frequency response, harmonics mix, maybe input headroom whatever. Some materials and layout? Transformer materials? Whatever I felt made it unique.


As a result, if you can take legal action for your work being copyright infringement from fortin's point of view then why not drag him to court and take your pride back or what you are feel is hurt, or even compensation.
Participating in every thread or going like this...I leave it to you if this is the correct course. You have a very good reputation for your knowledge and kind nature on other forums you know.

But, again, I don't even think, that fortin's customers are larry customers. Bussiness model is different. The sound as you claim is different and superior to your product because of construction technique and materials/layour. So in the end it is not the same amp anyway. Quality wise, feature wise or sonically.

I have to remind you as well that in the old thread were you felt the dino was not miced/represented carefully you loved the fortin clips...you really did.


Let's assume that you feel that your bussiness is losing customers because of the fortin catalogue. I don't think it is the case just because, even aesthetics and target group points to different people to be honest and even if we accept it as given that ok, you are losing everybody who wants a larry and goes buy a fortin I sincerely think it is not the price that would drive them. Fortin amps are not cheap price wise by any means!!! They are not jet city level price wise or bugera or randall rd or laney ironheart. So if I wanted a Larry, I'd buy a larry same way that if I want a soldano and have the money I won't settle for something copying a part or the complete circuit but not being able to deliver the SAME result due to construction or whatever.


So even after that, let's say the cat is out of the bag, the schematics match and yes people come to know fortin amps (some of them) as cheaper larry knock offs. Even if you lost 100 clients (I sincerely think that this number is not going to come close to the truth or whatever)...sorry to inform you that you wouldn't be able to built 100 amps in time for them anyway. Is it the materials needed? The way you set a standard for your product? The way you like to live? (I work 10-12 hours a day or more and raise children, 6+ days a week, ...I like to read guitar stuff at 1:00 at night, the only hours I have free lol!). You know better. But building 15 amps per year would take you more than 10 years to actually materialize said orders, if you have the materials and provided you would finish up the orders you say have for the next 18 months or more?

And you are what 60+? Judging by the photo from you and pierro etc...


So, in my humble oppinion let it be. It's not worth it. You said what you had to say. You build a product that people come to you no matter the cost and with no cheap marketing vs other brands. Be happy in your life and your success...


If people find it more about larry amps because of this fortin case, only fortin has to lose not you in my oppinion. I'd let that be.


PS> I still see it as a tube eq boost in front a JCM preamp lol. Sorry, I don't know that much about amps but, that is what it is to me.

I respect the not public direct answer, however you can PM me, point the errors and I can even send you the schematics I have to compare/see where they differ, I would appreciate some insight, nothing more.

 

[Kordoba]

I had a Krull video game cartridge for my Atari 2600.

It sucked a big fat rod.

Hahaha... I remember the first time playing Combat on a 2600... man that was the shit For me though, hands down the best game to come from the Atari 2600 was Pitfall!

The Activision shit was next level. I probably spent more time playing River Raid than any other game.

Diaper up bitches!

 

[Kordoba]

I had a Krull video game cartridge for my Atari 2600.

It sucked a big fat rod.

Hahaha... I remember the first time playing Combat on a 2600... man that was the shit For me though, hands down the best game to come from the Atari 2600 was Pitfall!

Warlords and Dragster were pretty good too

Dragster gave my joystick a serious workout.

You really had to whack the fucker.

 

[panhead]

This would be an international lawsuit and big fuckn money as far as a legit attorney to even touch it. Beware you may loose more than circuit. good luck

 

[panhead]

If this was a REAL serious issue why in the fuck would he be dicking on rig-talk?