dead-pan
Well-known member
Just own both 
RevDrucifer
Well-known member
I’m having a hard time understanding how some people using some gear is going to cause other people to not want to push technology forward in other areas. “Super modeler fans” wouldn’t be the target audience of a new amp if they’re that hardcore into modeling, just like super modeling fans aren’t the target audience of the boutique amp builders spitting out multiple variations of 50-years+ old designs and having no problem selling them for $3500-$4000 a pop.
It’s not Ibanez’ or EBMM customer’s fault Fender and Gibson keep putting out the same designs and not pushing anything forward. They’re not generally the same market to begin with.
I’d have to think if it’s true innovation, the desire/passion to do so will supersede anything else going on in the market.
S
sideshowsmitty
Member
Honestly, the Pod Go sounds as good as the Helix, but it can't do as much at the same time. Sort of like a pc with a smaller processor and less memory. If your only using a few effects and boost, you can definitely gig with it. I have, and then went to the Helix. I'm going to go back to my Mini Jubilee with the PGo as my pedalboard for some gig though. Depends on the gig. You can't beat a real amp, but the Helix/PG sound pretty damn good imho, especially since the last two firmware updates where they majorly updated the cabinets. That put the Helix in the same class as the Kemper/AxeFX/Quad Cortex.
GreatRedDragon
Well-known member
I like, own, and use modellers for some things, but when I switched from a software models to a 2203 for my main sound it was like the world changed. And I'm not talking volume or the feel of a live cab, because I run my head into a Suhr RL and play with headphones. I'm talking response and feel and just straight up tone. Night and day difference.
rsm
Well-known member
yes, the software plugins don't have the feel; I look at it as learning a different playing approach. not the same, but I focus on the sounds I'm getting with my computer rig vs sound and feel with my tube amps.
RevDrucifer
Well-known member
I’ve yet to play any software that felt appealing to play, I used them for about a year, Amplitube’s Mesa suite, some LePou stuff and the Thermionik stuff. The Thermionik was the first Mesa sim that got close, but there was still that disconnected feeling when using them.
I’ve never used another hardware modeler outside of the AxeFX III/FM9, but when I first started dialing in Mark IV, Dual Rec and 5150 presets, amps that I owned and gigged for years, that shit made me laugh with how spot on the feel was and how I had to dial them in the same way to get the response I was looking for. You can dial a Dual Rec and a 5150 in to sound as close as possible, they still won’t feel the same to play through and if I didn’t get that same difference in response, this shit wouldn’t be near as much fun as it is to use. I’d just stay on one amp and adjust the EQ if that were the case.
It’s the same way they don’t feel ‘normal’ if you turn off the power amp sim in the amp block and run a 6L6 modeled amp you’ve played through for years into an EL34 power section of a real amp; IE- my Shiva has EL34’s, the Fractal model is a 20th with KT88’s, it’s a subtle difference, but running the 20th model into the return of my actual Shiva has a slightly different response than playing the model on it’s own/through a class D amp. I haven’t tried changing the tubes or impedance curve in the Fractal to me a 1:1 match, but I don’t believe it would take a lot of effort.
I’ve never used another hardware modeler outside of the AxeFX III/FM9, but when I first started dialing in Mark IV, Dual Rec and 5150 presets, amps that I owned and gigged for years, that shit made me laugh with how spot on the feel was and how I had to dial them in the same way to get the response I was looking for. You can dial a Dual Rec and a 5150 in to sound as close as possible, they still won’t feel the same to play through and if I didn’t get that same difference in response, this shit wouldn’t be near as much fun as it is to use. I’d just stay on one amp and adjust the EQ if that were the case.
It’s the same way they don’t feel ‘normal’ if you turn off the power amp sim in the amp block and run a 6L6 modeled amp you’ve played through for years into an EL34 power section of a real amp; IE- my Shiva has EL34’s, the Fractal model is a 20th with KT88’s, it’s a subtle difference, but running the 20th model into the return of my actual Shiva has a slightly different response than playing the model on it’s own/through a class D amp. I haven’t tried changing the tubes or impedance curve in the Fractal to me a 1:1 match, but I don’t believe it would take a lot of effort.
ZEN Amps
Well-known member
I'm not going to comment on tone at all - obviously so subjective. But the sentence and a half above perfectly sums up what many tube amp users see as significant factors outside of sound.
My personal take on digital 'solutions' is pretty simple - I don't have fun, it doesn't feel inspiring, and I have never had a 'memorable moment' using one. For many users, I just don't think the technology lends itself to uniqueness, happy accidents, rebellious envelope-pushing, or good times in general really. The uniqueness part is counter-intuitive really. Surely with limitless options digital enables there would be an amazing array of new and original tones out in the world?
Anyone who has had, or regularly gets that rush from a killer amp/cab combination knows the feeling well. You dial in the amp, hit two chords and it just feels great. You end up playing for ages, get inspired, and wish to God your bandmates (or spouse) could understand the importance of your mission.
What is completely irrelevant to this type of player (and I'm one), is say a youtube video demonstrating that a Kemper profile recording sounds very similar to the real amp. Or that your buddy has a Fractal and swears he can't hear a difference. Or a forum dude saying amp guys are dinosaurs etc.
If everyone I knew told me synthetic beef was awesome, cheaper, more convenient and they couldn't tell the difference then I'd probably try it. If I didn't enjoy the experience after a dozen attempts, I'd just stick to a known entity that I do enjoy. And that's how you end up with a wall of amps, and a freezer full of Wagyu.
In 50 years I wonder if anyone's list of '100 greatest guitar tones of the last 100 years' will feature many entries outside of tube amps? Now that would be an interesting glimpse into our tone future.
H
harddriver
Well-known member
Batmansrigtalk says you must have golden ears MR. Game..............................No one can tell the difference between tubes and digital modeling...noone........
easstudios
Well-known member
Totally agree with everything you said here, excellent post.
Suppose it’s worth acknowledging how a seriously high % of bands are touring with some kind of modelling rig. I know some sound guys who tour the world with metal bands and they say basically no one is using real amps any more. Not what I’d like to see when I watch a band live, but I totally understand why it makes sense.
I’m a bit more open to digital stuff, I really enjoy it but not in the same way that I do with real amps. I don’t see one as a replacement or equivalent for the other. It’s been quite fun to discover how to make a modeller sound like a real amp, but it’s VERY apparent to me that how you get there is nothing like using a real amp. Another thing is with gear, I have no fears in using weird settings or doing odd combinations of gear. With digital, you have a chance to think and have doubts, and for whatever reason, we tend to set things a bit more conservatively. The same is also true with synths, with analog synths I almost feel like I want to blow something up and break them/push them to limits. With soft synths, doing one thing at a time, I don’t really approach it in the same way. I also think soft synths are great but the experience of using them is nothing like being hands on with a real one.
FLUXX
Active member
Modeling is dead.....Captures/Profiles are the future
Chris6870
Well-known member
I have both. I like both.
DanTravis62
Well-known member
You're either misunderstanding what I said, or you didn't read what I typed - "Some people using some gear" is not "If everyone switches to modelers"
N
Nigel
Active member
I get off on underbiased tubes as you all know.
I love how Ed got the feel with 5150’s via 100 ohm screen resistors with what can be construed as over bias.
Key is, the feel / right hand percussive dynamic is in power tube gain. The power amp is your distortion box.
This is the key factor.
I love how Ed got the feel with 5150’s via 100 ohm screen resistors with what can be construed as over bias.
Key is, the feel / right hand percussive dynamic is in power tube gain. The power amp is your distortion box.
This is the key factor.
N
Nigel
Active member
Eh, Tool and 311 still run real. Jinjer does too.
DanTravis62
Well-known member
And actually, either way, you actually are making my point
If modelers take enough market share, there's going to be a tipping point where it's no longer worth it for tube amp enthusiasts to innovate - and at that point, what will the modelers model?
The same shit they have been the last 10 years or so, where modelers have become tonally viable?
It's actually already becoming an issue
PBGas
Well-known member
Haters gonna hate. I never got along with the Kemper for live work, myself.
Use what you want and if it works for you then, great.
Use what you want and if it works for you then, great.
tallcoolone
Well-known member
This. The “either/or” people are completely missing the point.
tallcoolone
Well-known member
Your complaints above are not universal by any means—for many the tech becomes second nature quickly but yes for others it can be overwhelming. This stuff isn’t supposed to replace anything—it does what it is designed to do incredibly well but not everyone needs what that is. If you don’t record much, don’t play out a lot and/or have no noise restrictions there aren’t many reasons to go out and buy a modeler.
These things are all tools—why they make some (mostly older) guitar players angry I’ll never understand.
romanianreaper
Well-known member
Not just tube amps, solid state too! I've been digging my Orange Super 100 as much as my EVH heads.