Modelers suck

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If all modeling and digital users curb stomped those junk units and software as a group they would be required to sell you real amps again. I feel bad for kids who are shown this junk as a pathway. Typical bad advice gurus in the guitar world. Selling junk.

And for the people who say I"m hating, well, this is the modelers suck thread so I am entitled to my extreme negativity here so it doesn't count as thread crapping. Your modeler love defense counts as thread crapping so cool it with the positiity.

I've watched a guy plug his keyboard into a mac and get some ok b3 sounds but next to a real B3 even Hammond's own modeling keyboard sounds like dog crap. It's noticeable and the feel the player gets is noticeable. Why would I pay for killjoy gear except for as a backup in a bind?

I believe in tone knobs I don't believe in parameters. Did I mention screw Fender and their dumb tone master series? A tone master was a good all tube Fender amp now they've sullied that rep with some digital crap that costs as much as a vintage handwired BF unit. You gotta be a real moron or just ignorant to take that route.
 
tallcoolone said:
Your complaints above are not universal by any means—for many the tech becomes second nature quickly but yes for others it can be overwhelming.
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Yeah of course, just my thoughts and experiences.

I think 'overwhelming' is certainly true for some players. They just want to plug and play, and not bother with learning new stuff. I'm not in this category - I'm very happy to use all sorts of digital technology - it's just when it comes to amps I don't get a net benefit from using modelling or profiling.
 
ZEN Amps said:
I'm not going to comment on tone at all - obviously so subjective. But the sentence and a half above perfectly sums up what many tube amp users see as significant factors outside of sound.

My personal take on digital 'solutions' is pretty simple - I don't have fun, it doesn't feel inspiring, and I have never had a 'memorable moment' using one. For many users, I just don't think the technology lends itself to uniqueness, happy accidents, rebellious envelope-pushing, or good times in general really. The uniqueness part is counter-intuitive really. Surely with limitless options digital enables there would be an amazing array of new and original tones out in the world?

Anyone who has had, or regularly gets that rush from a killer amp/cab combination knows the feeling well. You dial in the amp, hit two chords and it just feels great. You end up playing for ages, get inspired, and wish to God your bandmates (or spouse) could understand the importance of your mission.

What is completely irrelevant to this type of player (and I'm one), is say a youtube video demonstrating that a Kemper profile recording sounds very similar to the real amp. Or that your buddy has a Fractal and swears he can't hear a difference. Or a forum dude saying amp guys are dinosaurs etc.

If everyone I knew told me synthetic beef was awesome, cheaper, more convenient and they couldn't tell the difference then I'd probably try it. If I didn't enjoy the experience after a dozen attempts, I'd just stick to a known entity that I do enjoy. And that's how you end up with a wall of amps, and a freezer full of Wagyu.

In 50 years I wonder if anyone's list of '100 greatest guitar tones of the last 100 years' will feature many entries outside of tube amps? Now that would be an interesting glimpse into our tone future.
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One cannot attain Zen with digital amps. Even ancient Buddhist monks knew this. Ever see one of them use modelers?
 
DanTravis62 said:
And actually, either way, you actually are making my point

If modelers take enough market share, there's going to be a tipping point where it's no longer worth it for tube amp enthusiasts to innovate - and at that point, what will the modelers model?

The same shit they have been the last 10 years or so, where modelers have become tonally viable?

It's actually already becoming an issue
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My issue with digital modelers is the modeling of real gear; but as I said earlier, if they didn't have models of real gear, and new versions getting realer than the current version, few would buy it and keep upgrading.

I'd like to see digital signal processing for guitar, Blue Cat Audio's Destructor plugin, and PolyChrome DSP are the closest I've found.

Although Blue Cat Audio have realized they had to provide presets that are "models" of real amps to get more people to buy it, but the "tone sculpting" tool is still there under the covers even if they blather on about amp modeling and offer dozens of factory presets modeling real amps.

FWIW, Tech 21's PSA 1.0, 1.1, and now 2.0, have presets they claim sound like other amp models predating digital modelers. It sells more products.
 
VonBonfire said:
They make me angry and I don't even play metal music so I'm guessing with this casual devil may care attitude you expressed you are doing adult contemporary stuff.
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I’m just:

IMG_6301.jpeg
 
DanTravis62 said:
You're either misunderstanding what I said, or you didn't read what I typed - "Some people using some gear" is not "If everyone switches to modelers"
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Is ”everyone switching to modelers” even a logical reality?
 
harddriver said:
Batmansrigtalk says you must have golden ears MR. Game..............................No one can tell the difference between tubes and digital modeling...noone........
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You are absolutely right about one thing…henceforth you and you only shall address me as Mr. Game.
 
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DanTravis62 said:
And actually, either way, you actually are making my point

If modelers take enough market share, there's going to be a tipping point where it's no longer worth it for tube amp enthusiasts to innovate - and at that point, what will the modelers model?

The same shit they have been the last 10 years or so, where modelers have become tonally viable?

It's actually already becoming an issue
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Man, if only there were some kind of sandbox device that allowed people to completely fuck with the components of an amp without electrocuting themselves, there’s probably some cool shit people would come up with. Instead they’re all making blind test videos that tube-only guy consistently fail to counter all the “modeling isn’t there yet” stuff.

IMO, the more people playing modelers who have never used a tube amp before, they’re probably going to be the ones asking for different sounds out of tube amps in the coming years. Look how amps have gone on with gates and input boosts in the last 10 years. The Invective is basically the Periphery dude’s AxeFX preset in amp form.

What tones do the majority of people want to hear on this forum? Modded Marshalls and 80’s Mesa’s make up a damn good percentage of it. A $7500 IIC++ NAD on RigTalk is a celebratory day. Friedman is getting ready to put out his own Plexi and Vox inspired amps, surely for well over $3K a piece. The market does not seem to be asking for innovation if money is doing the talking in the context of amps. I’m a “super modeling guy” or whatever it was and I still bought 3 tube amps in 2023 and have more planned for 2024.

Meanwhile, every modeling company is in a race to outdo each other. The customers aren’t demanding accuracy as much these days are they are functionality and making it easier to be creative with them. And guys like me who love both amps and modeling want a seamless mix of the two worlds where I want the flexibility/routing/effects of modeling with the wallop of a tube amp in a live setting. The either/or thing doesn’t register to me, whatever works, works.

And FWIW, I’m also not really keen on the idea of shared presets/captures. There is definitely a certain amount of homogenizing going on with that, but still, just like amp innovating, I believe that’s a bigger statement on people doing the creating more than anything else.
 
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One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that generally it's going to be easier to fix an analogue amp than it will be to fix a modeler. More options too with respect to shops, unless I'm mistaken. It doesn't have to be this way, but unless I'm missing something all modelers so far are black boxes that you send off to HQ if something important busts, if they even have a repair program. Not to mention that having a bunch of IC's with inaccessible custom software inside blows compared to discrete components if someone other than the manufacturer needs or wants to repair it.

Are there any modelers with good repairability and/or respect the right to repair?
 
Nigel said:
Eh, Tool and 311 still run real. Jinjer does too.
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Yeah, I’m not saying bands don’t use amps live. Just that many are using modelling these days. I love when bands are touring with full amp rigs, it makes for a better show and experience. But I also understand that it adds extra cost and other problems that may make it prohibitive for some.

I know some bands who simply can’t afford to make touring or overseas gigs work unless they REALLY economise everything and that means using modellers.
 
If you’re comparing the sound of a mic right on a speaker, then sure they sound the same through your studio monitors. But they are not the same to play through. Not even close. A tube amp is an instrument, you play it.
 
RevDrucifer said:
And FWIW, I’m also not really keen on the idea of shared presets/captures. There is definitely a certain amount of homogenizing going on with that, but still, just like amp innovating, I believe that’s a bigger statement on people doing the creating more than anything else.
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Are presets being used like that where things sound homogenised though? MAYBE there’s a case with people using digital or plugins generally and only using stock IR’s where things can get samey. I can’t really think of any examples of bands sounding identical because they’re using the same presets. A lot of bands have non-distinct tones but that’s as much of a problem for guys using 808->5150->V30’s as it is for a modeller.
7704A said:
One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that generally it's going to be easier to fix an analogue amp than it will be to fix a modeler. More options too with respect to shops, unless I'm mistaken. It doesn't have to be this way, but unless I'm missing something all modelers so far are black boxes that you send off to HQ if something important busts, if they even have a repair program. Not to mention that having a bunch of IC's with inaccessible custom software inside blows compared to discrete components if someone other than the manufacturer needs or wants to repair it.

Are there any modelers with good repairability and/or respect the right to repair?
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Its a good concern to have, but I think the serviceability requirements with modellers won’t be like that of an amp because they don’t have 500VDC flowing through a bunch of components, or valves that can misbehave or need a cab connected to protect the output transformer. Plus they’re smaller and can be controlled externally if need be so travelling with a backup might not add a lot more space or weight.

Presumably they have a lot of SMC so repairs are a bit more fiddly. I’d imagine it’s things like the screen or switches or jacks that are most likely to need repairs than a component failing though.
 
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I still don't understand why people get so up in arms on the tube amp vs modeler thing. They are both tools of the trade, have their best use, and each offer its own experiences. Nothing beats the joy and inspiration of cranking a 100 watt tube amp, something a modeler can't replicate. If you need consistent polished tone night after night a modeler's where it's at. Good luck getting that with a tube amp.

If you like tube amps; then great, but no need to shit all over modelers. Same thing goes the other way around. And there are more than enough users of each that one's not going to kill the other. Modelers are by no means the death of tube amps. Maybe after we've all been long dead and the world's tube supply has completely run dry, then modelers may take over. But by that point some other new technology will be out and everyone will claim that's the death of modelers.

Personally what I'd like to see developed is full amp circuit simulation, not just sound/tone. Like you have a digital recreation of an analog circuit and you can modify or add/subtract components the same way you'd mod a real amp; just in digital form.
 
7704A said:
One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that generally it's going to be easier to fix an analogue amp than it will be to fix a modeler. More options too with respect to shops, unless I'm mistaken. It doesn't have to be this way, but unless I'm missing something all modelers so far are black boxes that you send off to HQ if something important busts, if they even have a repair program. Not to mention that having a bunch of IC's with inaccessible custom software inside blows compared to discrete components if someone other than the manufacturer needs or wants to repair it.

Are there any modelers with good repairability and/or respect the right to repair?
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Another reason I moved to computer rig with software plugins for my digital rig.

small computers capable of running plugins with no noticeable latency are the price of many individual pedals.

The bigger issue IMO are hardware upgrades in digital gear are inevitable...though Helix hasn't seen a hardware upgrade yet AFAIK, unlike Fractal. Not sure about Kemper, and other tone capture as I'm not really into that approach. Digital hardware will eventually be obsolete and see fewer updates or none.
 
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easstudios said:
Are presets being used like that where things sound homogenised though? MAYBE there’s a case with people using digital or plugins generally and only using stock IR’s where things can get samey. I can’t really think of any examples of bands sounding identical because they’re using the same presets. A lot of bands have non-distinct tones but that’s as much of a problem for guys using 808->5150->V30’s as it is for a modeller.
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Hahahahah the hundreds, if not thousands, of mix texts that popped up on Sevenstring.org in the last decade seem to indicate that yes, there are a lot of people 'learning' via slapping presets on everything. And what's the biggest selling point of NDSP's plugins? Presets that give people a tone they can use right away without tweaking.

It's why I tend to scratch my head when people are asking for more presets or easier way to make Fractal's effects sound like other popular effects. The sandbox approach to it without training wheels is bound to create something new, simply by forcing user's hand at digging in and figuring out what all the knobs do. The simplified controls are already there, just turn the damn knobs!
 
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