Modelers suck

[Bardagh]

I remember the Line 6 lovers. I remember the Roland lovers. Then there was teh blues cube with it's little swappable shit tone tubes, lol. I remember the hard core Boss whatever it was called assault on the forums. OMG AMAZING!!!!! Lol, ok. Lately it's been the tone master-baiters. Modeling is like a vaccine for guitar because the biggest winners are the assholes selling that junk to the public at large. Oh but they are SO CLOSE NOW.

Well it’s particularly silly to try and sell an OLD modeling amp and claim it’s a superior product to what’s out now. These things are computer products, it’s like if I was trying to sell a 3Dfx graphics card and claiming it’s superior vintage technology that will blow away your NVidia RTX and AMD radeon products.

 

[MadAsAHatter]

I don't like complex rigs and digital stuff is complex. And it sounds like shit. So if you use it then maybe you sound like shit. I don't want to sound like shit so I use a simple guitar/amp combo with minimal junk in between them. You guys are making me depressed with your modeler love.

That's fine if you don't like modelers. I don't own or play through one either. It's not my thing. I'm pretty minimal in my setup. Guitar-tube amp-cab with a noise gate and once in a while a boost. That doesn't mean I can't appreciate the efforts in the digital technology or have to shit all over everyone else's setup to feel good about mine.

 

[VonBonfire]

Well it’s particularly silly to try and sell an OLD modeling amp and claim it’s a superior product to what’s out now. These things are computer products, it’s like if I was trying to sell a 3Dfx graphics card and claiming it’s superior vintage technology that will blow away your NVidia RTX and AMD radeon products.

Today's new modeling amp is tomorrows old modeling amp. The same praises you sing about today's junk is the same noise I heard ten fifteen twenty years ago about that junk then, all laughable today. In fifty years do you think anyone will use or value any of it? There's your answer. It's disposable junk shit. In a world of disposable junk shit it'd be nice if at least my rig could be considered durable goods. There is so little craftsmanship or pride in workmanship left the last thing I'm gonna do is take my gig dollars and give it to some garbage manufacturer when a bunch of small guys who do take that pride are more deserving of my cash be they an amp builder, pedal maker, or a good tech. My stuff is already fifty years old and still rocking. Modeling sucks, it really does.

 

[VonBonfire]

That's fine if you don't like modelers. I don't own or play through one either. It's not my thing. I'm pretty minimal in my setup. Guitar-tube amp-cab with a noise gate and once in a while a boost. That doesn't mean I can't appreciate the efforts in the digital technology or have to shit all over everyone else's setup to feel good about mine.

The thread is "Modelers suck". What I don't do is go into some guy's thread when he is giving the model love about his rig and crap in there so if you have tender feelers about modeling stuff this isn't your thread to come in and get butthurt about me saying it sucks I don't have to be tech friendly or positive about it here and if the mods wanna kick me off the site over this I will also be satisfied with that result. If I had a modeler unit right now I would boot stomp it with my heel until it was broken in pieces or use it for target practice in the back. This isn't a TGP sensitivity hour.

 

[easstudios]

Hahahahah the hundreds, if not thousands, of mix texts that popped up on Sevenstring.org in the last decade seem to indicate that yes, there are a lot of people 'learning' via slapping presets on everything. And what's the biggest selling point of NDSP's plugins? Presets that give people a tone they can use right away without tweaking.

It's why I tend to scratch my head when people are asking for more presets or easier way to make Fractal's effects sound like other popular effects. The sandbox approach to it without training wheels is bound to create something new, simply by forcing user's hand at digging in and figuring out what all the knobs do. The simplified controls are already there, just turn the damn knobs!

hmm, I mean guitar dudes posting clips on forums isn’t really where I’d be judging this stuff. There’s so much scope with all these different plugins out there, IR packs, NAM/ToneX models, pedals etc to mix and match. Stuff sounding bland and uniform is down to the individuals lack of originality which usually translates to boring song ideas and guff music.

Everyone has to start somewhere with that stuff, and even though on the whole things are way too uniform now, things sound less shit than they used to too. I’m not a preset guy at all myself (I always just delete factory stuff as soon as I can), but if they help in inspiring music and getting ideas out, I don’t care. When it comes to recording it properly, I’m sure there’s an opportunity to finesse sounds and find something more unique. If it’s just for writing or practicing mixing, I couldn’t give a shit what people do, it’s part of their journey. I made some horrendous sounding stuff when I was starting out

 

[Bardagh]

The place where software amps have always broken down to me is in the “cab” and interaction between the amp and cab aspects of the software. There are some other common problems like the way EMI and other interference at the guitar lead to very weird and intrusive types of digital sounding noise you wouldn’t hear from a regular amp, but as far as just being disappointed with the sound I found a lot of it to be in the cab software/dealing with IR’s.

A lot of guys with Kempers (which I had) would then say don’t judge it then until you disable the cab section and run it in the loop of a tube amp going into a regular guitar cab…at that point though, why am I not just playing the amp??

 

[DanTravis62]

Man, if only there were some kind of sandbox device that allowed people to completely fuck with the components of an amp without electrocuting themselves, there’s probably some cool shit people would come up with. Instead they’re all making blind test videos that tube-only guy consistently fail to counter all the “modeling isn’t there yet” stuff.

IMO, the more people playing modelers who have never used a tube amp before, they’re probably going to be the ones asking for different sounds out of tube amps in the coming years. Look how amps have gone on with gates and input boosts in the last 10 years. The Invective is basically the Periphery dude’s AxeFX preset in amp form.

What tones do the majority of people want to hear on this forum? Modded Marshalls and 80’s Mesa’s make up a damn good percentage of it. A $7500 IIC++ NAD on RigTalk is a celebratory day. Friedman is getting ready to put out his own Plexi and Vox inspired amps, surely for well over $3K a piece. The market does not seem to be asking for innovation if money is doing the talking in the context of amps. I’m a “super modeling guy” or whatever it was and I still bought 3 tube amps in 2023 and have more planned for 2024.

Meanwhile, every modeling company is in a race to outdo each other. The customers aren’t demanding accuracy as much these days are they are functionality and making it easier to be creative with them. And guys like me who love both amps and modeling want a seamless mix of the two worlds where I want the flexibility/routing/effects of modeling with the wallop of a tube amp in a live setting. The either/or thing doesn’t register to me, whatever works, works.

And FWIW, I’m also not really keen on the idea of shared presets/captures. There is definitely a certain amount of homogenizing going on with that, but still, just like amp innovating, I believe that’s a bigger statement on people doing the creating more than anything else.

The point I'm making is that it doesn't NEED to be "everyone" switching to modelers - just enough to where there isn't an incentive for actual tube amp designers/makers to keep innovating.

I would argue were already reaching or getting close to an event horizon of the market, where EVERYTHING is banal crap except for a tiny handful of specialists who congregate on places like RT.

I'm not anti-modeler at all - Ive used every flavor at some point - but I study macroeconomics and the direction were heading is very dark as far as guitar tone goes, if we continue down this path.

 

[TheGreatGreen]

So the guy in the video makes it obvious real quick that he really doesn't know what he's talking about at all. He likes tube amps better, that's fine, but his "reasons" are pretty much just bullshit grabbing at straws to just convince himself that there is anything of substance whatsoever behind his preferences.

I mean, the whole first half of the video, his first two points, is literally just him conflating "modeling" and "amp in the room vs direct signal to PA." That alone should be enough to tell anybody watching that he doesn't know enough about what he's talking about to be paid any attention.

The next point, "modelers sound too perfect" is... what the fuck? So, "perfect" is not exactly measurable so it's basically impossible to refute, but that's a hell of a broad brush to paint every single amp model from every single modeler and plugin. Sure some amp models in some modelers definitely can be cleaned up to a higher degree than the real thing, but they don't have to be.

And the final two points being "getting good tone should be harder than modelers make it, you should have to work for your art" and "tube amps are just cooler and more mysterious, maaaan." Does this bullshit even need to be addressed?

Like sure, you dig the experience of using tube amps more than the experience of using modelers in the same way some people might dig the experience of listening to music on vinyl over listening to flac files. Fine. But this guy is basically also saying "I prefer listening to vinyl records on my $100,000 stereo system over listening to flac files through my laptop's built-in speakers." without understanding what's wrong with that false equivalency.

Sorry to say it but the guy in the video is basically full of shit.


As for me personally, I like both tube amps and great modelers. I've been inspired playing on modelers plenty of times, just like I've been inspired by tube rigs. At this point I'm convinced that if you are hard-line against modelers full stop, you just haven't experienced what the best modeling can sound and feel like, because it absolutely can be every bit as good sounding and inspiring to play as tubes in the right conditions.

 

[VonBonfire]

At this point I'm convinced that if you are hard-line against modelers full stop, you just haven't heard what the best modeling can sound and feel like, because it absolutely can be every bit as good sounding and inspiring to play as tubes in the right conditions.

I am exceedingly hard line against modeling gear. You could even be right but after 20 years of marketing hype and obvious lying bullshit claims from the people making them and the fanboys gushing for two weeks on the forums after buying and then the numerous guys saying "I'm going back to tubes" after suffering the tech tone junk I"m not inclined to spend any money trying to prove your claims. And you said "full stop" like some karen which doesn't do anyone any favors, lol.

 

[TheGreatGreen]

I am exceedingly hard line against modeling gear. You could even be right but after 20 years of marketing hype and obvious lying bullshit claims from the people making them and the fanboys gushing for two weeks on the forums after buying and then the numerous guys saying "I'm going back to tubes" after suffering the tech tone junk I"m not inclined to spend any money trying to prove your claims. And you said "full stop" like some karen which doesn't do anyone any favors, lol.

Just because Line6 bullshitted everybody for two (maybe more like three) decades doesn't mean Fractal Audio and Kemper are guilty by proxy. Fractal's stuff in particular is amazing.

Full stop.

 

[Little B]

The dude in the video seems to have valid points. But I'm also not a modeler guy.I love my tube amps.Wise man says "a good tube amp is an instrument unto itself."

 

[GreatRedDragon]

Not what I’d like to see when I watch a band live, but I totally understand why it makes sense.

This actually bummed me out just a few days ago. I saw Steel Panther for the first time and, having gone in pretty blind to the whole thing, I expected to see some Marshall stacks. And there was... nothing! Satchel was playing through a modeller on his pedalboard. It sounded fantastic, but it was a bit of a letdown to see a band spoofing hair metal and not see a wall of Marshalls. Not even dummy cabs. Hell I would EXPECT dummy cabs! Like the most blatantly fake poser dummy cab setup possible. But not even that. The stage was empty.

I went to my first concert when I was 12 years old. Ozzy fucking Osbourne with Zakk fucking Wylde.

You know what I saw? This:

That night I decided I was going to be a guitar player. Haven't stopped since.

 

[RevDrucifer]

This actually bummed me out just a few days ago. I saw Steel Panther for the first time and, having gone in pretty blind to the whole thing, I expected to see some Marshall stacks. And there was... nothing! Satchel was playing through a modeller on his pedalboard. It sounded fantastic, but it was a bit of a letdown to see a band spoofing hair metal and not see a wall of Marshalls. Not even dummy cabs. Hell I would EXPECT dummy cabs! Like the most blatantly fake poser dummy cab setup possible. But not even that. The stage was empty.

I went to my first concert when I was 12 years old. Ozzy fucking Osbourne with Zakk fucking Wylde.

You know what I saw? This:

That night I decided I was going to be a guitar player. Haven't stopped since.

This kinda highlights my overall gripe towards the anti-modelers sentiment; a stack of dummy cabs has nothing to do with the music being made. Satchel’s been touring that modeling rig for a couple years now because he’s still able to translate the music he writes into an audience with it. Sure, a wall of cabs looks cool, I kept an obscene amount of gear in my kitchen/living room for a week last week just because of that, but then it got time to work on actual music shit so it came down and turned into respective rigs for different applications.

And I’m not fond of the direct-only way bands have been going. I’m not a fan of the way it sounds/feels live and I absolutely agree that that particular element, or when it comes to getting a group of teenagers together in a room, the shit that’ll happen as a result of playing through loud ass amps is going to be different than if they’re all wearing headphones, but time has yet to prove that’s a detriment or not. My live rig uses both modeling and a tube amp because I want that tube power section pushing air, I couldn’t give a fuck if it‘s a modeler or a tube pre-amp feeding that power section though. Whatever works, works. I’d give anyone $100 if they could sit in my living room and tell me if they were hearing the 5153 model in the FM9 or the 5153’s pre-amp when both are coming out of the same power section.

A lot of the modeling gripes can get tied back to the ‘it’s not rock n roll’ but I’m not sure the rock n roll that existed previously is even capable of existing today. Sonically, sure, in spirit? I dunno. If anything, the younger crowd waving a middle finger to the tube amp generation IS the most rock n roll thing happening right now. It’s definitely more rock n roll than a bunch of dude’s crying that gear that makes guitar tones easily accessible exists.

“Guitar gear exists that makes things easier for people to be creative and I have a problem with it” will never not be hilarious to me.

 

[RevDrucifer]

I don't have anything

FTFY.

We know this. Hacks never do.

 

[Ben Waylin]

I’d give anyone $100 if they could sit in my living room and tell me if they were hearing the 5153 model in the FM9 or the 5153’s pre-amp when both are coming out of the same power section.

What kind of snacks you got over there ?

 

[VonBonfire]

FTFY.

We know this. Hacks never do.

You can goad me all you like champ it don't mean nothing.

 

[GreatRedDragon]

This kinda highlights my overall gripe towards the anti-modelers sentiment; a stack of dummy cabs has nothing to do with the music being made. Satchel’s been touring that modeling rig for a couple years now because he’s still able to translate the music he writes into an audience with it. Sure, a wall of cabs looks cool, I kept an obscene amount of gear in my kitchen/living room for a week last week just because of that, but then it got time to work on actual music shit so it came down and turned into respective rigs for different applications.

And I’m not fond of the direct-only way bands have been going. I’m not a fan of the way it sounds/feels live and I absolutely agree that that particular element, or when it comes to getting a group of teenagers together in a room, the shit that’ll happen as a result of playing through loud ass amps is going to be different than if they’re all wearing headphones, but time has yet to prove that’s a detriment or not. My live rig uses both modeling and a tube amp because I want that tube power section pushing air, I couldn’t give a fuck if it‘s a modeler or a tube pre-amp feeding that power section though. Whatever works, works. I’d give anyone $100 if they could sit in my living room and tell me if they were hearing the 5153 model in the FM9 or the 5153’s pre-amp when both are coming out of the same power section.

A lot of the modeling gripes can get tied back to the ‘it’s not rock n roll’ but I’m not sure the rock n roll that existed previously is even capable of existing today. Sonically, sure, in spirit? I dunno. If anything, the younger crowd waving a middle finger to the tube amp generation IS the most rock n roll thing happening right now. It’s definitely more rock n roll than a bunch of dude’s crying that gear that makes guitar tones easily accessible exists.

“Guitar gear exists that makes things easier for people to be creative and I have a problem with it” will never not be hilarious to me.

Well my disappointment over Satchel's rig specifically (or rather, Steel Panther's set dressing) is because that image is such a signature aspect of the era they're spoofing.

 

[romanianreaper]

Let's be honest, nobody is playing amp modelers because of the tone being better than tube amps. That never will be the case. It is convenience, weight, durability and cost (in some cases).

Just like Ipods. They exist because people couldn't jog with a turntable and JBL speakers on their back. If Marshall, Diezel, etc. came out with some revolutionary tube technology with tubes that never break, some wood from Zaire that made heads weigh 8 pounds, etc., people wouldn't be as motivated to find alternate solutions.

I think everything has to be taken with a grain of salt. Before I was in my current band, I had a Fractal and just recorded at home. For me, I didn't want to gig with a modeler because I thought it would get outrageously expensive with great speakers, footswitch, etc, etc. So I went to tube amps but now want to just take something light and reliable. That is why I got the Orange Super Crush 100. I could always go back to my EVH 5150-III Stealth if I want.

 

[rsm]

Well it’s particularly silly to try and sell an OLD modeling amp and claim it’s a superior product to what’s out now. These things are computer products, it’s like if I was trying to sell a 3Dfx graphics card and claiming it’s superior vintage technology that will blow away your NVidia RTX and AMD radeon products.

well, if you sell it and mention that it has "mojo", you may get more; many guitarists look for gear with "mojo"; everyone knows the older the gear the more mojo it has.

 

[VonBonfire]

well, if you sell it and mention that it has "mojo", you may get more; many guitarists look for gear with "mojo"; everyone knows the older the gear the more mojo it has.

I have a used ADAT to sell you.