Modelers suck

  • Thread starter Thread starter Exo-metal
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MadAsAHatter said:
Personally what I'd like to see developed is full amp circuit simulation, not just sound/tone. Like you have a digital recreation of an analog circuit and you can modify or add/subtract components the same way you'd mod a real amp; just in digital form.
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Not going to comment on those who get angry about a technology / tool no one is forcing them to use. :dunno:

I'd go further, digital signal processing for guitar should be fully digital and not rely on analog designs. I mentioned a few plugins that are a step in the "embrace digital" direction:

Blue Cat Audio Destructor, though for the last few years they've been marketing it's "amp modeling" and providing factor presets designed to sound (and look) like real amps. The tone sculpting editor tool is still in there, and that's what I use.

PolyChromeDSP McRocklin Suite - my current favorite plugin; a standard signal path, with idealized amps and effects and cabs/mics and a very good dirt section that provides gain staging and eq section. I'm not a tweaker nor do I like to deep dive into low level parameters, so this design and workflow works great for me.

Hopefully, more guitar plugin makers will add "tone sculpting and shaping tools" to their existing plugins as digital signal processing tools without the analog models.
 
MadAsAHatter said:
I still don't understand why people get so up in arms on the tube amp vs modeler thing. They are both tools of the trade, have their best use, and each offer its own experiences. Nothing beats the joy and inspiration of cranking a 100 watt tube amp, something a modeler can't replicate. If you need consistent polished tone night after night a modeler's where it's at. Good luck getting that with a tube amp.

If you like tube amps; then great, but no need to shit all over modelers. Same thing goes the other way around. And there are more than enough users of each that one's not going to kill the other. Modelers are by no means the death of tube amps. Maybe after we've all been long dead and the world's tube supply has completely run dry, then modelers may take over. But by that point some other new technology will be out and everyone will claim that's the death of modelers.

Personally what I'd like to see developed is full amp circuit simulation, not just sound/tone. Like you have a digital recreation of an analog circuit and you can modify or add/subtract components the same way you'd mod a real amp; just in digital form.
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I agree with all of this and I suppose it highlights another point for me; playing through a cranked up amp is a blast, but hearing a song you just wrote and having it in permanent audio form you can listen to for the rest of your life will always trump any amp, modeler, guitar or whatever for me. I know when I look back at nearly 30 years of gigging and band frustrations, not a single memory consists of "Remember that night my amp was cranked? That was awesome", nor "Remember that time my AxeFX sounded killer", but there's a bunch of music I've made along the way that supersedes any of that.

And FWIW, the AxeFX already does that. That's exactly how/why the AxeFX is as accurate as it is. You should see the detail the TGF members are hitting Cliff up with, scrutinizing pot values and bright caps. The last month has been a "I'm looking at the schematics right now, why is that pot logarithmic? You should fix that" on there. Hahahah @easstudios has been an avid participant. Take a look at this thread to see what I'm talking about- https://thegearforum.com/threads/adventures-in-fractals-dual-rectifiers.3949/
 
RevDrucifer said:
Hahahahah the hundreds, if not thousands, of mix texts that popped up on Sevenstring.org in the last decade seem to indicate that yes, there are a lot of people 'learning' via slapping presets on everything. And what's the biggest selling point of NDSP's plugins? Presets that give people a tone they can use right away without tweaking.

It's why I tend to scratch my head when people are asking for more presets or easier way to make Fractal's effects sound like other popular effects. The sandbox approach to it without training wheels is bound to create something new, simply by forcing user's hand at digging in and figuring out what all the knobs do. The simplified controls are already there, just turn the damn knobs!
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Agree about Neural DSP plugins, same with my other plugins such as PolyChrome DSP - they provide many factory presets that are usable.

What I do is find the factory presets I like, make copies then see the settings and start adjusting from there. They provide a great starting point to learn how to use the plugin, and hear it's capabilities. The Neural DSP plugins are still the "digital modeling of real gear" design mode though.
 
I didn't realize we had so many lgbtq members here who gay modeled.
 
easstudios said:
Yeah, I’m not saying bands don’t use amps live. Just that many are using modelling these days. I love when bands are touring with full amp rigs, it makes for a better show and experience. But I also understand that it adds extra cost and other problems that may make it prohibitive for some.

I know some bands who simply can’t afford to make touring or overseas gigs work unless they REALLY economise everything and that means using modellers.
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Oh I know. Big boys are in both camps. A local guy that gets a lot of out of town gigs uses a Helix. Even my dad bought one and uses it and he has EVERYTHING.
 
I like using all type of tools for guitar and have done literally everything from the Laney Iommi amp, made for stadiums, to gigging with a BOSS combo the size of a lunchbox.

This past few months I saw Yngwie and his wall of Marshalls in front of me and that was cool. Then weeks later, I saw Brit Floyd with Fractals and that was sone of the best tones I've ever heard live.

I think everyone is different but for me, the more bells and whistles an amp has, the less I play and the more I tweak. For my 5150-III amps and my Orange Super Crush 100, I have them set and barely move a knob.

I dig alot of this stuff coming out but don't like some also. That Uafx (?) Lion sounds killer based on what I've heard and some other cool products. I think I need things that are good for home, gigs, etc. People want bang for buck. I've played tones of amps from a myriad of companies since 1986 and that Orange combo I got for $699 new, has been a treat. Loud, light, sounds massive, takes pedals great, etc. And I just keep my EVH head for when I want tube.
 
RevDrucifer said:
And FWIW, the AxeFX already does that. That's exactly how/why the AxeFX is as accurate as it is. You should see the detail the TGF members are hitting Cliff up with, scrutinizing pot values and bright caps. The last month has been a "I'm looking at the schematics right now, why is that pot logarithmic? You should fix that" on there. Hahahah @easstudios has been an avid participant. Take a look at this thread to see what I'm talking about- https://thegearforum.com/threads/adventures-in-fractals-dual-rectifiers.3949/
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I knew the AxeFX was pretty in depth, but didn't know it went into that kind of detail. I haven't been hands on with one to truly see how far it goes and "tutorial" videos I've watched are usually limited to setting up fx signal chains and patches.
 
Modelers make me play better, I know to get the 1 and 0’s really moving for that tube like feel I’m really gonna have to dig in and give it my all, this leads to better performances.
 
romanianreaper said:
This past few months I saw Yngwie and his wall of Marshalls in front of me and that was cool. Then weeks later, I saw Brit Floyd with Fractals and that was sone of the best tones I've ever heard live.
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This. I'll always maintain, if you can dial in great tones and play, you can dial in great tones and play...as long as the gear is up to the task and not pure rubbish that is, and frankly, today's high end modelers and profilers are pretty legit. I use both, tube amps and my Fractal and I'm content because when I listen to the music I record with the axe fx, it sounds just as good as the stuff I record with my tube amps, pedals, etc, it all sounds like me regardless...the gear is doing its job (all of it).

I get the devotion from life long tube amp players though - I just have the feeling for some of them, there will simply "always be something wrong", they will never like modelers (and other digital options) regardless of how great they sound (especially in a mix context)...it's kind of like those occasional folks you meet that are always mad (or happy) despite not actually having a reason to feel that way. Dial in some tones and play.
 
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MadAsAHatter said:
It appears like you might be one of those self-hating closeted modeler users.
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I don't like complex rigs and digital stuff is complex. And it sounds like shit. So if you use it then maybe you sound like shit. I don't want to sound like shit so I use a simple guitar/amp combo with minimal junk in between them. You guys are making me depressed with your modeler love.
 
MadAsAHatter said:
I knew the AxeFX was pretty in depth, but didn't know it went into that kind of detail. I haven't been hands on with one to truly see how far it goes and "tutorial" videos I've watched are usually limited to setting up fx signal chains and patches.
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It's almost hard to talk about it due to the "Fractal is hard" camp not shutting up. It's very easy to see that level of depth, while hearing all the "Fractal's are hard" shit and then assume you have to spend time in there to make a decent sounding preset. I only jump in there when I feel like playing in the mud, or when I made my own Jose 6CA7.
 
VonBonfire said:
I don't like complex rigs and digital stuff is complex. And it sounds like shit. So if you use it then maybe you sound like shit. I don't want to sound like shit so I use a simple guitar/amp combo with minimal junk in between them.
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Someone who projects this hard is deepthroating cucumbers when no one is looking.

I would love to hear you play sometime.
 
RevDrucifer said:
Post some clips. Shatter my reality that you're not a hack talking shit as a result of zero creative output.
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I don't have anything to prove to you. I get paid to play. Worry about your own game, I'm sure there is plenty to improve there champ.
 
japetus said:
This is when the "vintage modeler" market comes into play. Better horde those Johnson J Stations and POD beans while you still can.
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I’ve already seen this shit with the Johnson amps a couple times. Cracks me up as I actually had to use a Johnson Millenium amp for about a month back when they were a thing. My amp (Crate Blue doodoo) was in the shop and the Johnson was the loaner I could get. So when I read these ads claiming these VINTAGE modelers sound MORE REAL and are hidden treasures you should get your hands on while you still can, it cracks me up. It was basically like the Line 6 Spider Valve that came years later.

Of course I am relying on my impression from decades ago but me and the other guitarist in the band were both using Blue Doodoos and the Johnson could not hang at all, not with a drummer and not with the other tube amp. It was a fine practice amp though and fun to mess with at the time. At least the combo had vintage 30’s in it.
 
VonBonfire said:
I didn't realize we had so many lgbtq members here who gay modeled.
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oh-you.jpg
 
Bardagh said:
It was basically like the Line 6 Spider Valve that came years later.
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I remember the Line 6 lovers. I remember the Roland lovers. Then there was teh blues cube with it's little swappable shit tone tubes, lol. I remember the hard core Boss whatever it was called assault on the forums. OMG AMAZING!!!!! Lol, ok. Lately it's been the tone master-baiters. Modeling is like a vaccine for guitar because the biggest winners are the assholes selling that junk to the public at large. Oh but they are SO CLOSE NOW.
 
Modelers have come a long way and I can totally see the situations where I would use one, but I would probably always feel that it was trade off of what really sounds and feels good to me for convenience or dealing with some other limitation beyond my control, be it noise related or logistics. That said I’m glad it all exists but having tried a few years back to make a total jump to relying 100% on a Kemper and plugins, I would never choose to go digital again unless forced.
 
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