Proof the Earth is round

VonBonfire said:
Like the protestant I debated last night you keep bringing up roman catholicism, which is a heresy just like the reformers except they still have some semblance of liturgy i.e holy tradition. You don't even have that. I am orthodox, we are pre denominational, and the visible church, the visible body of Christ.


We ask for the intercession of the saints who the bible says are alive in heaven with Christ. It's no different than asking a fellow believer to pray for you in your hour of need.
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Where does it say in the Bible you should ask for the intercession of the saints. Where does it say in the Bible that ritualistic claptrap is important other than perhaps communion which is a remembrance of Jesus.
 
Thumbpicker said:
Where does it say in the Bible you should ask for the intercession of the saints. Where does it say in the Bible that ritualistic claptrap is important other than perhaps communion which is a remembrance of Jesus.
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The "rituatlistic claptrap" is the divine liturgy that dates back to the earliest church fathers and was passed from apostle, to disciple, and unto the world. Where in the bible does it say grape juice and a fleck of dry bread is an acceptable form of communion? That's an invention, and innovation, and orthodoxy is anti-innovation, because we preserve the holy traditions of the first 200 years and reject innovations like welch's grape juice as the blood of Christ.
 
VonBonfire said:
The "rituatlistic claptrap" is the divine liturgy that dates back to the earliest church fathers and was passed from apostle, to disciple, and unto the world. Where in the bible does it say grape juice and a fleck of dry bread is an acceptable form of communion? That's an invention, and innovation, and orthodoxy is anti-innovation, because we preserve the holy traditions of the first 200 years and reject innovations like welch's grape juice as the blood of Christ.
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The below basically says the same thing as I did.

https://www.gotquestions.org/rituals-in-Christianity.html
 
VonBonfire said:
The "rituatlistic claptrap" is the divine liturgy that dates back to the earliest church fathers and was passed from apostle, to disciple, and unto the world. Where in the bible does it say grape juice and a fleck of dry bread is an acceptable form of communion? That's an invention, and innovation, and orthodoxy is anti-innovation, because we preserve the holy traditions of the first 200 years and reject innovations like welch's grape juice as the blood of Christ.
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You sound like a pharisee - all concerned with traditions and rituals.
 
Thumbpicker said:
The below basically says the same thing as I did.

https://www.gotquestions.org/rituals-in-Christianity.html
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Liturgy is worship. And the entire divine liturgy revolves around the body and blood of Christ. Unless you eat and drink of it you have no life in you, John 6:53. You, like last night's protestant contestant, spin it as though it were a magic formula. It's not, it's the divine liturgy and every church was centered around it for well over a thousand years before protestants came along and disposed of it, so again, you are arguing against history and are an innovator lost in a sea of theological confusion and heresy.
 
Thumbpicker said:
You sound like a pharisee - all concerned with traditions and rituals.
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So how was there a church for 200 years before the scriptures existed as you know them if there were no holy traditions? I guess everyone got together and drank coffee and talked about what? What did a service consist of for the first 200 years without scripture? It was divine liturgy, the communion.
 
VonBonfire said:
So how was there a church for 200 years before the scriptures existed as you know them if there were no holy traditions? I guess everyone got together and drank coffee and talked about what? What did a service consist of for the first 200 years without scripture? It was divine liturgy, the communion.
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Romans 7:6 "But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code."
 
Thumbpicker said:
Romans 7:6 "But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code."
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Right. We are released from the jewish law. You, like last nights contestant, are repeating orthodoxy back to me.
 
Thumbpicker said:
Yes so we don't go right back to blindly following legalistic ritualism.
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Jewish law is what you are referencing and then trying to make a circular argument to include orthodoxy and that isn't accurate. You are talking about juudaizers who wanted to make circumcision a requirement. I had this argument with last's nights protestant too. It's like deja vu.

I am talking about the earliest years of the church. Run by the people whose books you read. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, etc. All saints BTW. If the book of John says you have no life in you without consuming the body and blood, then yes, I would take that as the same level of commandment as Christ saying "love your neighbor". It is part of the saving process. Notice I didn't use "saved" in past tense.
 
VonBonfire said:
Jewish law is what you are referencing and then trying to make a circular argument to include orthodoxy and that isn't accurate. You are talking about juudaizers who wanted to make circumcision a requirement. I had this argument with last's nights protestant too. It's like deja vu.

I am talking about the earliest years of the church. Run by the people whose books you read. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, etc. All saints BTW. If the book of John says you have no life in you without consuming the body and blood, then yes, I would take that as the same level of commandment as Christ saying "love your neighbor". It is part of the saving process. Notice I didn't use "saved" in past tense.
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Circumcision was an example but you can look at the principle behind it. Also you need to draw a distinction between the early church in Israel vs the early churches in Gentile countries. At that time, they were still working out what it all meant for Gentiles and that shows in Paul's letters. You have to look back to the Old Testament and Law for context but we don't have to worship that way.
 
Thumbpicker said:
Circumcision was an example but you can look at the principle behind it.
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Yes, I did look. You are talking about people who are trying to include jewish law as a requirement for salvation. Again, you are preaching orthodoxy back to me because orthodoxy condemned the judaizers because Christ is the fulfillment of OT law.

Thumbpicker said:
Also you need to draw a distinction between the early church in Israel vs the early churches in Gentile countries. At that time, they were still working out what it all meant for Gentiles and that shows in Paul's letters. You have to look back to the Old Testament and Law for context but we don't have to worship that way.
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I don't need to draw a distinction. The church is the church is the church. The apostles had disciples. They went out into all the world and faithfully carried those teachings unto sainthood and martyrdom. Paul condemns judaizers early on. Orthodoxy reveres Paul and all his writings so again, you are just telling me what my church already believes. Much like last night's contestant, you are mostly orthodox already, you just deny the holy tradition centered around communion with Christ and replace it with a strict outward study of scripture. We include both of those things together in orthodoxy and they are in harmony with each other. I would be happy to carry this conversation into the wee hours of the morning btw.
 
VonBonfire said:
Yes, I did look. You are talking about people who are trying to include jewish law as a requirement for salvation. Again, you are preaching orthodoxy back to me because orthodoxy condemned the judaizers because Christ is the fulfillment of OT law.


I don't need to draw a distinction. The church is the church is the church. The apostles had disciples. They went out into all the world and faithfully carried those teachings unto sainthood and martyrdom. Paul condemns judaizers early on. Orthodoxy reveres Paul and all his writings so again, you are just telling me what my church already believes. Much like last night's contestant, you are mostly orthodox already, you just deny the holy tradition centered around communion with Christ and replace it with a strict outward study of scripture. We include both of those things together in orthodoxy and they are in harmony with each other. I would be happy to carry this conversation into the wee hours of the morning btw.
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I still think communion is important... and baptism. I'm not going to say I think they are essential to salvation but they are important things we are commanded/asked to do. Acts of obedience and remembrance.
 
VonBonfire said:
You are one of the most orthodox guys I know in terms of deed. You always are able to show saint like kindness and are mild mannered like a monk. All you gotta do is get the orthodox dunk and some holy communion and you're on your way to being my boss in the next life. :LOL:
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I'm good but thanks for the compliment :D

So keeping on topic - do you also mistrust what you have been told about the globe Earth or are your beliefs strictly bound to that reference/interpretation in the Old Testament?
 
Thumbpicker said:
I still think communion is important... and baptism. I'm not going to say I think they are essential to salvation but they are important things we are commanded/asked to do. Acts of obedience and remembrance.
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Communion is the absolute center and core of the entire faith, for over a thousand years the entire service hinged on the communion and this is why the holy tradition of the first 200 years is critical ALONG with the scriptures. In orthodoxy they meet in harmony because all the authors of the bible you value were orthodox. There was only one church in the time of the authors of the NT and that church is today called the eastern orthodox church. It exists pre-denominationally.
 
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