V
VonBonfire
Well-known member
It's funny you accuse me of cannibalism because that's the same kind of slander that was said about the early believers. So really in your zeal to be protestant you do the work of satan.
MontiCristo
Well-known member
Come on down to Texas and rapp me across the mouth bubba. I’ll send over my address.
Mary was a sinner like every other human being that ever lived apart from Christ.
You have produced no evidence to the contrary on this or any other point you have made.
Why am I still talking to this dude?
He actually believes we consume human blood and flesh during communion.
I’m out.
311splawndude
Well-known member
He's probably not that far away....
V
VonBonfire
Well-known member
I'm already in TX. Someday when you find orthodoxy you'll rap yourself across the mouth.
You called me a cannibal, just like the pagan romans did to the early believers so you're doing the devil's work.
Thumbpicker
Well-known member
The traditions of men have nothing to do with message of God in the Bible and the life of Jesus. Jesus didn't come to proclaim the good news only for it to be modified and confounded by foolish men who sought to put their stamp on it.
God doesn't change. The good news in the New Testament doesn't change. The words in the Bible don't get modified ex-post ie. after the event. They stand forever.
If the Church was to move every time men don't agree with bits of it we'd all belong to a rotary club.
There is no point in belonging to churches that don't follow the Bible unless you want to belong to a social club.
Thumbpicker
Well-known member
He also believes the Earth is flat and space is make believe.
V
VonBonfire
Well-known member
This is exactly why protestant faiths are heresy. You've altered the original meanings to suit yourself and denied the writings of the early church fathers.
Space is fake. I don't believe earth is flat, or a spinning ball either. You always make stuff up and insult others when you lose the argument so here you are.
acceptance
Well-known member
Von can answer but I gather that Orthodoxy sees itself as harmonious with the scripture and sees Protestants as lacking the Church, IE the Orthodox Church, which includes "Tradition" (IE of God, not man).
MontiCristo
Well-known member
That can't be correct because "orthodoxy" doesn't align with the scriptures. Again, the scriptures, nowhere, in any capacity ever even come close to indicating that Mary was sinless, nor do they in any way imply transubstantiation (the idea that the bread and wine are actually Christ's physical body and blood, and they magically transform right before taking them).
MontiCristo
Well-known member
I woke this morning and realized this thread had spun completely out of control.
The OP was seeking Proof of God and all we managed to do was debate and pick at each other in a fashion that is borderline unbecoming.
I apologize to @311splawndude who originated the post, I'm more than sure this is not what He wanted to see.
There is no need for any of us to put God on trial and attempt to prove to men that He exists. His Prescence is clearly perceived by looking at the wonderous creation and intricacies of life. In addition the objective standard of morality that is written on each of our hearts is evidence of His fingerprint.
@311splawndude or anyone else following - if you have never truly heard the gospel - pay attention because here it is :
If you have ever lied, stolen, coveted, bore false witness, been disrespectful to your parents, or have broken any other of God's commands (the whole lot of us have), then you are a sinner and have violated a Holy God. The scripture says Heb 9:27 "for it is appointed unto man to die once, and then comes judgment". You will face God for your sins one day when you die, you cannot escape death nor His judgment. However, God in His infinite grace and wisdom has provided a means of reconciliation, a means of washing every sin you ever committed away. He sent His son to take the full weight of your sin. The scripture says 2Cor 5:21 "he who knew no sin, became sin so that we might become the righteousness of God". Christ's death was God pouring out His wrath that was due us for our sin on Christ. He was then buried and the 3rd day He rose again defeating death! Why is this significant? Because death could not hold Him, for He knew no sin.
So what does this mean for you the sinner? It means repenting of your sin and placing your faith in Jesus Christ reconciles you to God. He no longer sees your sin, no longer burns with righteous indignation over your sin, and judgment is no longer coming. You are free from the wrath of God. John 3:36 " he who has the son has life, he who does not have the son does not have life, but God's wrath remains on him".
There is nothing else required other than faith in Christ.
No worship or exalt of Mary, no confessing to a priest, no eating and drinking of anything particular, no magic prayer, no money given.
simply repentance and faith.
Romans 4:4-5 says, "Now to the one who works, his wages are not credited as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation. But to the one who does not work, but believes and completely trusts in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited to him as righteousness
The OP was seeking Proof of God and all we managed to do was debate and pick at each other in a fashion that is borderline unbecoming.
I apologize to @311splawndude who originated the post, I'm more than sure this is not what He wanted to see.
There is no need for any of us to put God on trial and attempt to prove to men that He exists. His Prescence is clearly perceived by looking at the wonderous creation and intricacies of life. In addition the objective standard of morality that is written on each of our hearts is evidence of His fingerprint.
@311splawndude or anyone else following - if you have never truly heard the gospel - pay attention because here it is :
If you have ever lied, stolen, coveted, bore false witness, been disrespectful to your parents, or have broken any other of God's commands (the whole lot of us have), then you are a sinner and have violated a Holy God. The scripture says Heb 9:27 "for it is appointed unto man to die once, and then comes judgment". You will face God for your sins one day when you die, you cannot escape death nor His judgment. However, God in His infinite grace and wisdom has provided a means of reconciliation, a means of washing every sin you ever committed away. He sent His son to take the full weight of your sin. The scripture says 2Cor 5:21 "he who knew no sin, became sin so that we might become the righteousness of God". Christ's death was God pouring out His wrath that was due us for our sin on Christ. He was then buried and the 3rd day He rose again defeating death! Why is this significant? Because death could not hold Him, for He knew no sin.
So what does this mean for you the sinner? It means repenting of your sin and placing your faith in Jesus Christ reconciles you to God. He no longer sees your sin, no longer burns with righteous indignation over your sin, and judgment is no longer coming. You are free from the wrath of God. John 3:36 " he who has the son has life, he who does not have the son does not have life, but God's wrath remains on him".
There is nothing else required other than faith in Christ.
No worship or exalt of Mary, no confessing to a priest, no eating and drinking of anything particular, no magic prayer, no money given.
simply repentance and faith.
Romans 4:4-5 says, "Now to the one who works, his wages are not credited as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation. But to the one who does not work, but believes and completely trusts in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited to him as righteousness
acceptance
Well-known member
Like I keep saying, that's your protestant interpretation of the scriptures. Sure, some passages are pretty clear, but the Bible is a big book and not a set of codified law. Even if it were, lawyers debate meaning all the time.
acceptance
Well-known member
That happens occasionally in OTC
MontiCristo
Well-known member
Right, that's all you keep saying "that's your interpretation", but you're not presenting any texts. If just feels like your hiding behind "that's your interpretation".
so show me and all of us any texts that even hint to Mary being sinless?
they don't exist, it's not a matter of interpretation.
It's like me saying there aren't any Ferrari's in the bible and you saying " well that's just your interpretation".
MontiCristo
Well-known member
with all due respect this isn't just my "interpretation" Paul is clearly saying ALL HUMANS
again, I've said this several times and neither you or Von have answered.
Did Mary die? If so, it is clearly evident that she sinned.
'Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— '
Romans 5:12
https://www.bible.com/bible/3345/ROM.5.12
acceptance
Well-known member
Fair enough — didn't we discuss Col 2:8? You're saying it precludes "tradition" according to your protestant understanding of the word, IE "Church tradition." I don't think there is anything about the text itself that suggests that this verse precludes church tradition — hence, it is a disagreement of interpretation between Orthodoxy and Protestantism.
...Paul saying "All" humans could be understood in a more general sense. Jesus was human and you agree he didn't sin for example. The thing that I've noticed is that Protestants will scold others for being "Pharisees" but then scour the words of the Bible just like an attorney would.
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acceptance
Well-known member
And as for John 1:1, I think you'r overlooking the logical problem. It can be addressed in sophisticated ways, but only by appealing to esoteric religious concepts or arguing that God is above our logical comprehension. Again, I think this gives the Orthodox an advantage in that (at least as far as I can tell) they would not suggest anyone can just read the bible and grok it's more difficult teachings like protestants suggest. As I understand the Orthodox say you need the church and it's tradition for this. On the other hand, I think (And I think Von would agree) that there is a benefit to the layperson being able to read and understand much of the bible, and that there were abuses of laypeople from not being able to do so, as in Martin Luther's time.
MontiCristo
Well-known member
I understand, thanks for responding. There seems to be a fundamental breakdown of communication here. The "tradition" you and @VonBonfire are appealing to is contrary to Christ, in that it's not contained in His word.
Let's look at Col 2:8 again
'See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, and not according to Christ. '
anyone should be able to look at this and see clearly that Paul's point is, if it isn't from Christ it isn't to be valued or received.
My position isn't to throw out all of Church History, never made that claim, simply that any "tradition / history" that doesn't align with Christ's word is empty deception.
With regard to the implication that Paul's "all" includes Christ, I'm just dumbfounded at the hint of this. It's so far off, I stand in amazement. The scriptures everywhere attest to Jesus being sinless :
'And you know that He was manifested in order to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin. '
1 John 3:5
'For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things like we are, yet without sin. '
Hebrews 4:15
1For to this you have been called, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example that you should follow in His steps, 22who did no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth;
1Peter 2:22
2 Corinthians 5:21 – For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
MontiCristo
Well-known member
now it's your turn - provide scripture explicitly stating Mary was sinless.
and for the record, no way anyone would say the above is according to "my interpretation"
these text are clear - Jesus was sinless.
MontiCristo
Well-known member
@acceptance - your turn. provide textual support for the claim that Mary is / was sinless.
acceptance
Well-known member
I will leave that to Von as I am not really arguing it and I don't know the Orthodox teachings. I also agree that it is silly to understand Paul's use of the word 'all' to include Jesus given his other clear statements. I was just trying to use that as an example about looking to closely at the words in a vacuum. The issue that is really in dispute is that you claim the Orthodox teachings that are outside of the Bible are not from Christ, while Von is saying that they are and that the Church tradition establishes that. I don't see how Col 2:8 excludes this from at least being possible, so you guys need to argue it back and forth.