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VESmedic
Well-known member
I will say though, between this guy and andrew cuomo both writing books, I think it’s about time I write one if the bar is this low, I’ll look like a genius.
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TheToneDig
Active member
So no chest thump from palm muting a 20W Marshall JCM800 through a 2x12?
It's -6db dude. You still have something as loud as a fire engine siren and subwoofer in a cinema theatre on loud.
This only seems to me to be going in the direction of this myth that FRFRs don't produce a chest thump. In which case, you haven't stood in front of a FRFR cab played loud.
100W was invented to push air over the screaming heads of fans. It wasn't something done for tone. In fact, the tone we all want is already there at much lower wattages in most cases.
In fact, many of you argued for the Herbert and EVH after I mentioned them. I mentioned them because you can play them at low volumes and get heavy tones from them.
BTW, I disagree punch isn't tone. V30 has a punch compared to a Greenback for example. Nothing to do with chest thumps.
Smash
Hack
Why are we talking about decibels? Why are you using youtube videos to show something that you have to feel? Why are you talking about tones?Do you have a learning disability?
Let me help you. Do you have a real amp in your house and a 4x12? No you can't. But do you have a friend that is a real guitarist? Go play his rig at volume. I will accept your apology
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VESmedic
Well-known member
My god you are something…
The evh is 100 watts. The Herbert is 180. They can sound great at low volumes. THAT DOESNT AUTOMATICALLY MEAN THAT THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE IN THAT LOW WATTAGE AMPS CAN SOUND LIKE A HERBERT… the inverse isn’t by default true, do you get it yet ?
TheToneDig
Active member
This claim you can only get a chest thump from a 100W and a 4x12 is really not a very good argument.
You can get it from monitors also and just profiling gear. You don't need that exact combination to get the same effect.
Also, guitar cabs are directional. Meaning you walk around and the sound changes a lot. FRFR is unidirectional. You hear the same thing in more places.
Smash
Hack
I think first I must help out ves medic, dan travis, and myself by explaining the Fallacies of Logic.
Smash
Hack
you don't hear thump. Does that make sense?
Smash
Hack
thump is power
DanTravis62
Well-known member
TheToneDig
Active member
EVH is also 50W, not just 100W. Also, there is the LBX at 15W. It roars.
You can get the Herbert tone in amps less than 180W. I use their pre-amp pedal into the green channel of an EVH for example.
Also, Diezel made a VHX 100W amp so even they could harness 180W in 100W.
The tone isn't about higher wattage. Most of these tones are achievable at much lower wattages. Not all, but many, including high-gain distortion.
The idea you absolutely need these at home for that high-gain tone you sought after is for a very few. Most of us can do it with less wattage. We just work ways out to do it.
Smash
Hack
Some guys get a girl pregnant with a micro penis. Doesn't mean I have to hate my big dick.
ZEN Amps
Well-known member
Rather than listen to amateurs and shills on Youtube I always run extensive independent, non-biased tests myself (and often with my business partner so we can do blind tests). This includes measurements and listening tests - one alone can be unreliable.
Couple this with talking to pros you know and trust (or at least trust) and you'll gain knowledge, rather than form opinions. Not crappy videos, forum talk, speculation, or assumptions. Do the work, and you'll find your own results.
I didn't have the energy to read this entire thread but I haven't seen anything from Ves or or DanT I disagree with - their thoughts align to the results of literally 100's of hours of our testing. Our 'test rig' is the below, plus many other heads, small amps, combos, modellers, attenuators and load boxes not pictured.
I would say though the difference between 50 and 100W is not of a much of a factor (for recording in particular) but from 20W to 50W certainly is. And yes we have 1x12's and 2x12's, but for rock and metal they just don't get used.
Couple this with talking to pros you know and trust (or at least trust) and you'll gain knowledge, rather than form opinions. Not crappy videos, forum talk, speculation, or assumptions. Do the work, and you'll find your own results.
I didn't have the energy to read this entire thread but I haven't seen anything from Ves or or DanT I disagree with - their thoughts align to the results of literally 100's of hours of our testing. Our 'test rig' is the below, plus many other heads, small amps, combos, modellers, attenuators and load boxes not pictured.
I would say though the difference between 50 and 100W is not of a much of a factor (for recording in particular) but from 20W to 50W certainly is. And yes we have 1x12's and 2x12's, but for rock and metal they just don't get used.
DanTravis62
Well-known member
The reason the Herbert was brought up was because I was using it as an example - Peter Diezel made it for Korn because of the low end transient response problems for super downtuned/seven string guitars. Not low end frequency reproduction, which our intrepid YouTube expert author confused it for.
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VESmedic
Well-known member
You can get the Herbert tone in other amps? That’s news to… well… all of us I’m sure.
Now that I’ve calmed down from this abomination of a thread, I will say if you are hell bent on getting these tones at low volumes, I personally would use plugins any day of the week over trying to make a 20 watt tube amp sound like my favorite records. I honestly think the plugin market is going to swallow the small amp market big time sooner or later, if people ever wise up and use their ears. I’d take stl’s tonehub or a few other plugin over a 20 watt version of any of my amps any day of the week.
DanTravis62
Well-known member
Yep, 100% agree on plug ins.
I wasn't about it at first, but a friend gave me the Jason Richardson plugin, and it really is fantastic. Especially for a beginner or someone new to micing amps. It's very easy to get very usable tones.
The SLO plug in is good too. Not exactly like an SLO, but very, very good.
TheToneDig
Active member
You can get the Herbert tone on other amps. I even mentioned two ways.
Diezel VHX100. A tube amplifier with profiling capabilities for their entire line of amps including Herbert.
Diezel Herbert pedal. They made a true pre-amp pedal that faithfully reproduces the pre-amp section tones. Just like the VH4-2 pedal.
Also, Herbert has a little brother. The D-Moll.
Same voicing. Less wattage and bells and whistles.
Anyway, we are talking about top-shelf amps here.
High-gain at home, I would consider 50W and under. 20W these days is more than enough, IMO. Others think they need 100W. I don't even think some studios would need that. Anyway, their choice. I just think it can be done with less especially in 2021.
Smash
Hack
The problem with your logic here is that this isn't in the form of a youtube video....which we all know is the only way to prove anything
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VESmedic
Well-known member
Okay great, ya got me. The 5000 dollar VHX *may* be able to get the same tones as the Herbert. Congratulations. I’m arguing with someone who thinks everything is the same, so I’m sure explaining why that’s probably not the case, would fall on ( obviously) deaf ears.
You can think whatever you want, you can believe whatever you want, doesn’t mean it’s true. You aren’t going to get the caliber of tones on your favorite records the way you are describing they can be done, simple as that. You can get great tones at home, there is no doubt about it. But if you think you are going to plug in your 20 watt amp into a two notes load box and load up an IR and have the biggest tone you’ve ever heard in your entire life, you are in for some real disappointment.
We’ve also been over this 137 different ways: 100 watt amps are used for just about every other reason than volume. But I’m talking to a wall, so that’s my fault for reiterating.
SQUAREHEAD
Well-known member
Nope
That’s it.
TheToneDig
Active member
-6 db. That's the difference.
Most of the albums we all love aren't going to be in the past 10 or 5 years. The gear we have today wasn't there for a lot of it.
There are plenty of examples of smaller wattage high-gain heads that will deliver on tones of their bigger brothers.
SLO 30.
Friedman Runt Head 20W.
Marshall Studio 20W.
Revv 20W.
Laney 30W.
I would be very surprised if people can tell the difference in a recording these days between those and the 100W versions.
Why do you think they make 50W BE-ODs and EVHs if the same signature tone wasn't there?