jchrisf
Well-known member
The Ceriatone 2204 that's coming has the PPIMV on it so hopefully that will take care of volume issues without the need for a separate attenuator.
ZEN Amps
Well-known member
Yep a PPIMV can work too, lots of options. Interested to see how you go with it - it's a different feel and tone to an attenuator as the EL34's are no longer working very hard and the NFB / presence changes. Report back!
DanTravis62
Well-known member
You're going to find a lot of people who don't agree with this here.
The main reason is headroom; for certain styles of music, it doesn't fucking matter what IR you slap on a 20 watt amp, it isn't going to work for many styles. Mine in particular.
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VESmedic
Well-known member
Agreed… couldn’t disagree more with this. There’s a reason Atleast with my metal and hard rock big amps are used. And it’s not because “ no one can tell the difference”. Complete load of horseshit. Big iron, headroom, gain structure, power amp interaction etc, all play big parts on your recorded tones. I love when people make comments like that with literally nothing to back it up.
cardinal
Well-known member
Clips to back up the huge difference in recorded tone between a 2203 and the new Studio 800 amps with the same cab/IR? Genuinely curious.
DanTravis62
Well-known member
He apparently wrote a book about it lol so he had SOMETHING to back it up...
But it doesn't jive with my experience at all.
If he's got tones he's recorded in the sort of styles you and I play @VESmedic I would be very, very, very surprised.
Not that I haven't been proven wrong before.
I just sincerely doubt he's ever tried to get the sort of tones we both record frequently, if he thinks you can solve the "small amp low end thing" with fucking EQ lol
DanTravis62
Well-known member
I'd be willing to wager that you couldnt tell much of a difference in lead tones, but if you were doing triplets or quadruplets of the low E, staccato, at 160 bpm, you could most certainly tell the difference.
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VESmedic
Well-known member
It’s just too blanket of a statement. Even someone showing me a blind test, given all the variables that need to be accounted for etc. I don’t see any of my favorite engineers selling their 100 watt heads or buying 10-20 watt amps in place of them, with good reason. This guy wrote a book on home recording: ok great, that’s one thing. But to say that all of those things are “good enough” in the professional world, is asinine. And that’s not to say those small amps can’t or don’t sound great, that’s not what im saying at all here. What I am saying, is they aren’t the same, and things that may seem small or minute in the home recording world, very well might not be in a pro studio. And you definitely can’t “ just eq in” some missing bass from a smaller amp, it’s just not that simple. I’ve seen that statement for years and years, and I’ve yet to see one person back it up showing an example where the complex low end of a 100 watt amp sounded the same as its 20 watt counterpoint with an eq in the loop or in the box, it’s just not going to happen, an amps interaction with the power amp and transformer is much more complex than that. People buy 50 watt amps all the time because they sound DIFFERENT than their 100 watt bigger brothers: the 2203 and 2204 come to mind: they both can sound very different in a mix, and depending on what you are going for looking for, picking one or the other may be more appropriate. Just like any other time you use a different piece of gear for different tones. A smaller amp is almost always going to have less headroom, much less transient information/attack, often times a smaller less open midrange, and a smaller sonic footprint. Kind of like how a 2x12 will never sound like a 4x12: however that’s based simply on physics. Whether or not you can hear these differences is an entirely different conversation, but these things matter greatly in the pro audio world.
311splawndude
Well-known member
Well taken, but not necessarily. For example, single coil pickups through a 100w amp with small trannys into cheap, small or lightweight speakers (including speaker emulators and headphones) are not going to sound as good, to me, then say humbuckers into big massive transformers into proper speakers in a 4x12. See?
Did I just say small trannys
hope I didn't trigger anyone 
That actually doesn't make sense to me
Even my Splawn at half power (50w) probably has more iron going then 'lots of smaller amps' combined
cardinal
Well-known member
Different amps sound different, yes. But if we all agree that both big and small amps can sound great, then just get whatever and enjoy. No need to denigrate something as lesser.
DanTravis62
Well-known member
Yeah that isn't the point I think anyone was making. (Edit: maybe @Dopethrone was, but I think it was a joke)
It's just a very common shibboleth amongst the modern guitar zeitgeist (especially YouTube, and people who make money tangential to the gear industry) that you can literally do anything with a 20w amp that you can do with a 100w amp. And it simply isn't true.
The reason it is so popular is because it's what people want to hear. They want to hear that their grab-and-go 1x12 or 2x12 sounds exactly like a 4x12. They want to hear that their 15 watt Joyo or BAD mini can keep up with a drummer unmiced. They want to hear that stuff, so people say it (even though it isn't true) to get money/views/etc from them.
Because that way, in their head, they don't have make compromises about space and volume - which, in fact, are the reality.
wIsEbLooD
Well-known member
Uberschall rev blue works really great for low volume.
The rest I run through the power station.
The rest I run through the power station.
rstites
Well-known member
There are a lot of recordings out there done with small amps over the years that most people believe are big ones. It can be very difficult to really tell the difference. I do say that as someone who lugged my trusty 2203 and 4x12's back and forth to record, but I'll freely admit that a lot of it was familiarity. It's the same reason I play my own guitars, I'm familiar with in the studio. I have my sound and my playing, so used my stuff. With a little time, I could have used their stuff and gotten perfectly good results. As someone who never got the open-checkbook studio time, I never got that luxury. It was always in/out in a few days (or hours!).
Yeah, you can't EQ in bass, but most of that bass is a home-bedroom thing to begin with on guitar, as it'll get consumed by the bass guitar, kick, and toms in a mix anyway. I love some big bass on guitar, but I also know where it goes in a live mix, and yeah there's a bit more space in the stereo-field of a professional recording, but it's still going to be pretty minimal when all is said and done. You can't EQ something in that isn't there, for certain, but it doesn't need to be there nearly as much as lots of players think, in a band mix. On big amps, you usually roll back the EQ in the mix to clean them up a bit and not muddle things.
While, it's true that 1x12s vs. 2x12s vs. 4x12s sound different out front due to phasing issues, I'm skeptical of any major difference for close mic'd sound. If you're trying to capture room ambience, maybe. (Probably the room itself is a few million times more important than speaker configuration.) But, old-fashioned, close mic'd, nah, not a big deal. Again, love my old 4x12's, but you won't hear the difference at the board between it and a little 1x12 with the same speaker, live or studio with a dynamic set a few inches in front of it.
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VESmedic
Well-known member
I’ll disagree completely on the cab statements towards the end, 100 percent. Again, if someone can show me an example where it “didnt matter”, I’ll be happy to listen, but that would mean a ton of work to actually be done right. 2 mixes, done right, one with a 4x12 and one with a 1x12 with the exact same speaker, same mic position etc.
There’s lots of myths on low end on guitars and how much you can use etc. all I can say is, none of the engineers I know think like this or pay attention to these arbitrary made ups rules about how much low end you can use or not use etc. if you know what you are doing, you can make anything work, I can assure you of this 100 percent. The amount of low end on modern guitars is striking and often completely backwards to what many internet myths here and other places would have you believe. Atleast for the tones and records I love and the records I have first account knowledge of in modern metal, high passing much above 60hz is not common in the least, nor is cutting much lower than 12k or so on guitars. You can have all the low end in the world if it sits right with other instruments. I also know of absolutely zero records done with anything smaller than a 4x12 speaker cabinet that have come out of audiohammer, sneaps studio, or colins studio. Sure, these aren’t the only producers in metal, but they have more than shaped the sonic footprint of what is considered modern metal in the last 20 years. I also realize you were alluding to mostly live sound work, which isn’t my thing so I won’t comment on that at all, but I could agree “maybe” in those situations, a 2x12 vs a 4x12 may not make a huge difference, but i still have my doubts completely.
TheToneDig
Active member
What I wrote is that home recording with load boxes and using IRs is very much how bedroom recording with tube amps is done.
I said you won't know the difference between a 100W JCM800 and a 20W SC20h in a recording with the right cab sim.
If people disagree fine, but I think modelers have shown that they can cut it, let alone an actual tube head designed to do it.
I have never read a thread where the majority of users got it right in telling the difference. Not here, not YouTube, not anywhere. That was 10 years ago and each year it has just gotten even closer.
Anyway, the processing of a speaker and cab make to the final tone along with microphone choice is absolutely critical in electric guitar. To dedicate a cab sim to that, like the Two Notes Captor X, gets it right and sometimes better.
Hence my comment about Wet/Dry.
TheToneDig
Active member
EVH 5150III 50W can do high gain at low volume levels.
Diezel Herbert is another.
Very much the opposite of Marshall which needs that master volume high to get the signature crunch. Attenuator all the way there when it comes to home use and recording.
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VESmedic
Well-known member
Bob rock… Staub, Scott burns… max Norman….
Add those to the list that have NEVER, and i do mean never, used anything smaller than a 4x12 for their guitar tones on their records. Do others? Sure. Do they get sounds on those guys level? That’s an opinion, but I think we know where I’m going with this….
Add those to the list that have NEVER, and i do mean never, used anything smaller than a 4x12 for their guitar tones on their records. Do others? Sure. Do they get sounds on those guys level? That’s an opinion, but I think we know where I’m going with this….
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VESmedic
Well-known member
You lost all credibility with me when you think the two notes specifically, can get it right or better than a real mic and cab… you also joined this forum 6 hours ago, and started talking about your book, but I digress…
The two notes is by far the worst of the bunch of load boxes on the market today. If you had played the suhr, st rock, or my personal favorite the driftwood loadbox, you wouldn’t be having this opinion. If you had tried these and still think that, I’d consider you deaf
In home recording, sure fine. I still disagree that a 100 watt amp and it’s 20 watt counterpart will ever sound the same, or close in certain frequency ranges. YouTube isn’t exactly what I would call the best listening environment for this type of thing either, to put it lightly.
DanTravis62
Well-known member
I mean, maybe in a bedroom/home recording setup, where you're playing certain styles of music with the two amps that lend themselves to it, you could very well be right - but it sure as hell doesn't work like that with the style of music *I* personally play. That's why I'm invested in the topic; I wasted a whole bunch of time, money, and effort, because of the "one size fits all" and "small everything" guitar community trends.
The interaction of the pre/power section, and the transformers, has a very real and tangible effect on the sound when you're playing heavy music.
Have you ever played an old, small fender, like a Princeton or Champ completely cranked? It takes more juice to push out those low end frequencies - the transformer, PI, and power section can't handle it - and that's why they "fart out" when cranked up into overdrive.
When you are playing highly percussive, staccato rhythm guitar for heavy music, something similar happens with smaller amps on a much less obvious scale, NO MATTER the cab or IR that's being used. Some amp designers have tried to work around this, to varying degrees of success, but no one has split the atom yet.
It just becomes more obvious when in the context of a legitimate recording, especially if your ears are attuned to the sounds of the genre.
TheToneDig
Active member
Why not go for a full-stack then? Two 4x12s.
A 4x12 was designed for sending your sound over screaming 60s fans. The full stack when audiences got bigger. In the recording studio, lots of guitarists still recorded using a 1x12 or 2x12 rig and sometimes a totally different brand and model to what they gigged with. Combos in studios were extremely popular. 4x12s, less so. In the 80s you did have some metal bands use a half-stack in the studio. They were able to isolate them and use booths, that's why. I mean what do you think you get from a 4x12 other than more locations and speaker choices for mic selection?
A 1x12 Mesa Boogie Mark V ends any discussion about the need for a 4x12 for either recording or gigging, IMO. You have your wall of cabs and then behind them, mic'd up that MkV, the main tone going through the house monitors already drowning out a 100W with a 10000W FRFR system. Not to mention FRFR is unidirectional, as opposed to just direct like a cab is. So it's no wonder plenty of modern guitarists prefer that the audience hears the same sound equally rather than a few rows directly in front of the cab for the chest thump.
You lost all credibility with me when you think the two notes specifically, can get it right or better than a real mic and cab… you also joined this forum 6 hours ago, and started talking about your book, but I digress…
The two notes is by far the worst of the bunch of load boxes on the market today. If you had played the suhr, st rock, or my personal favorite the driftwood loadbox, you wouldn’t be having this opinion. If you had tried these and still think that, I’d consider you deaf
In home recording, sure fine. I still disagree that a 100 watt amp and it’s 20 watt counterpart will ever sound the same, or close in certain frequency ranges. YouTube isn’t exactly what I would call the best listening environment for this type of thing either, to put it lightly.
I disagree. I think blind tests won't demonstrate that anyone has some special hearing abilities on these matters. If you can provide a link where they do get this right on guess tests I would be glad to be shown wrong. It hasn't happened yet. There are even YouTube posts on here every month of something asking people to do just that. The result is the same. The recording tone is so close people are just randomly guessing which is which.