Question for the high wattage amp guys here about playing at home

[VESmedic]

Why not go for a full-stack then? Two 4x12s.

A 4x12 was designed for sending your sound over screaming 60s fans. The full stack when audiences got bigger. In the recording studio, lots of guitarists still recorded using a 1x12 or 2x12 rig and sometimes a totally different brand and model to what they gigged with. Combos in studios were extremely popular. 4x12s, less so. In the 80s you did have some metal bands use a half-stack in the studio. They were able to isolate them and use booths, that's why. I mean what do you think you get from a 4x12 other than more locations and speaker choices for mic selection?

A 1x12 Mesa Boogie Mark V ends any discussion about the need for a 4x12 for either recording or gigging, IMO. You have your wall of cabs and then behind them, mic'd up that MkV, the main tone going through the house monitors already drowning out a 100W with a 10000W FRFR system. Not to mention FRFR is unidirectional, as opposed to just direct like a cab is. So it's no wonder plenty of modern guitarists prefer that the audience hears the same sound equally rather than a few rows directly in front of the cab for the chest thump.



I disagree. I think blind tests won't demonstrate that anyone has some special hearing abilities on these matters. If you can provide a link where they do get this right on guess tests I would be glad to be shown wrong. It hasn't happened yet. There are even YouTube posts on here every month of something asking people to do just that. The result is the same. The recording tone is so close people are just randomly guessing which is which.

I’m going to say this one more time… randy staub… Scott burns… mark Lewis… Jason suecof… bob rock…. Elvis baskette… max Norman….Colin Richardson… Andy sneap…


None of these guys have ever used something smaller than a 4x12 for their tones. WE are not talking about the 80s. We are talking about the last 30 years up to and including TODAY. Tell me why again I should listen to you over these guys when it comes to tone?


The fact that you are trying to argue with me that the only thing you get with a 4x12 is more mic and speaker choices once again, tells me everything I need to know about you and your knowledge in this area. Wow. I couldn’t care less what a speaker cab was designed for, I’m only telling you that, the guys who literally shaped the sound of modern metal and hard rock tones use a 4x12 for a very specific reason. End of story. Not sometimes. Not used to. Not once in awhile. Always. Why do you think that is? I mean after all, according to you, none of these things matter, and a mark V combo Just completely negates the Grammy winning record producers and engineers I’ve mentioned here. I also am not talking about live tones in the least, I am talking about tracking and engineering studio tones, so I’m not sure where you are going with the mark V comment, I made no mention of these topics in regards to a live situation.


And what do you disagree about? Do you want clips of my two notes torpedo vs my driftwood load box? I’ll be happy to send them to you, I’ve touched on this topic many times as many here are aware. I also don’t believe one person picked liking the two notes torpedo over the driftwood loadbox. It’s no secret the two notes impedence curve is extremely off when mimicking a 4x12 cabinet in the low end specifically. They also use cheap parts that can’t reproduce the frequencies of a 100 watt tube amp efficiently or accurately, another topic that has been discussed many times.

 

[TheToneDig]

I mean, maybe in a bedroom/home recording setup, where you're playing certain styles of music with the two amps that lend themselves to it, you could very well be right - but it sure as hell doesn't work like that with the style of music *I* personally play. That's why I'm invested in the topic; I wasted a whole bunch of time, money, and effort, because of the "one size fits all" and "small everything" guitar community trends.

The interaction of the pre/power section, and the transformers, has a very real and tangible effect on the sound when you're playing heavy music.

Have you ever played an old, small fender, like a Princeton or Champ completely cranked? It takes more juice to push out those low end frequencies - the transformer, PI, and power section can't handle it - and that's why they "fart out" when cranked up into overdrive.

When you are playing highly percussive, staccato rhythm guitar for heavy music, something similar happens with smaller amps on a much less obvious scale, NO MATTER the cab or IR that's being used. Some amp designers have tried to work around this, to varying degrees of success, but no one has split the atom yet.

It just becomes more obvious when in the context of a legitimate recording, especially if your ears are attuned to the sounds of the genre.

The OP is talking about recording in a small room. So not just maybe, but yes, you can get the same guitar tone down onto a track, not only using the tube amp + IR system but even with total profiling. The evidence is in how people can't tell the difference. The reason why I don't go total profiling sometimes is that all analog amp heads have subtle variations and even speakers do also. Off the same assembly line and yet need dialing in somewhat differently.

Custom is even more variable. You pick the head/combo you dig the most.

A profile is a profile of a particular amp. Your JCM800 or Plexi won't be identical to my JCM800 or Plexi. Same with cab sims.

Personally, I have spent just as much time dialing in a tube amp and finding sweet spots and microphone selection and placements maybe more than I did with modelers.

Anyway, my point is just that tube amp + cab sim and the right IR can be so similar in a recording that people are just randomly guessing which is which. So it makes sense that this method even in a small room setting is not only valid but has a good decade-long record of doing just that.

 

[VESmedic]

The OP is talking about recording in a small room. So not just maybe, but yes, you can get the same guitar tone down onto a track, not only using the tube amp + IR system but even with total profiling. The evidence is in how people can't tell the difference. The reason why I don't go total profiling sometimes is that all analog amp heads have subtle variations and even speakers do also. Off the same assembly line and yet need dialing in somewhat differently.

Custom is even more variable. You pick the head/combo you did the most.

A profile is a profile of a particular amp. Your JCM800 or Plexi won't be identical to my JCM800 or Plexi. Same with cab sims.

Personally, I have spent just as much time dialing in a tube amp and finding sweet spots and microphone selection and placements maybe more than I did with modelers.

Anyway, my point is just that tube amp + cab sim and the right IR can be so similar in a recording that people are just randomly guessing which is which. So it makes sense that this method even in a small room setting is not only valid but has a good decade-long record of doing just that.

Ok, I can agree with you that they can be similar to the point that some people may not be able to tell… but that’s not exactly what your rant was alluding to earlier.

 

[TheToneDig]

I’m going to say this one more time… randy staub… Scott burns… mark Lewis… Jason suecof… bob rock…. Elvis baskette… max Norman….Colin Richardson… Andy sneap…


None of these guys have ever used something smaller than a 4x12 for their tones. WE are not talking about the 80s. We are talking about the last 30 years up to and including TODAY. Tell me why again I should listen to you over these guys when it comes to tone?


The fact that you are trying to argue with me that the only thing you get with a 4x12 is more mic and speaker choices once again, tells me everything I need to know about you and your knowledge in this area. Wow. I couldn’t care less what a speaker cab was designed for, I’m only telling you that, the guys who literally shaped the sound of modern metal and hard rock tones use a 4x12 for a very specific reason. End of story. Not sometimes. Not used to. Not once in awhile. Always. Why do you think that is? I mean after all, according to you, none of these things matter, and a mark V combo Just completely negates the Grammy winning record producers and engineers I’ve mentioned here. I also am not talking about live tones in the least, I am talking about tracking and engineering studio tones, so I’m not sure where you are going with the mark V comment, I made no mention of these topics in regards to a live situation.


And what do you disagree about? Do you want clips of my two notes torpedo vs my driftwood load box? I’ll be happy to send them to you, I’ve touched on this topic many times as many here are aware. I also don’t believe one person picked liking the two notes torpedo over the driftwood loadbox. It’s no secret the two notes impedence curve is extremely off when mimicking a 4x12 cabinet in the low end specifically. They also use cheap parts that can’t reproduce the frequencies of a 100 watt tube amp efficiently or accurately, another topic that has been discussed many times.

I am trying to get your point about what a 4x12 offers more than microphone location and speaker choice in a recording situation?

A 4x12 was designed for sending sound over screaming fans. It's a volume over distance issue. Nothing to do with tone. That is why guitarists could achieve the same thing with a 1x12 or 2x12 cab/combo in a recording studio. The reason why some artists use a 4x12 cab in a recording studio is the same reason they use a 1x12 or 2x12. There is probably a choice speaker in there. Just like some amps are a choice over others. Studios tend to collect choice stuff and well-known artists. Like own amp farms and select the one they dig the most. A 4x12 doesn't give you the tone you can't get out of a 2x12 at the most for recording. I think sound engineers have found they can do it with 2x12s just as much as 4x12s.

Anyway, from the 1980s onwards, especially with Randy Rhodes, double-tracking is how they got their high gain thickness. So I just don't see why the number of speakers you use matters. It's the number of guitar takes laid down for the mix, IMO. Hence why Two Notes doing Wet/Dry is a fantastic way for a bedroom player to record with a tube head.

 

[DanTravis62]

The OP is talking about recording in a small room. So not just maybe, but yes, you can get the same guitar tone down onto a track, not only using the tube amp + IR system but even with total profiling. The evidence is in how people can't tell the difference. The reason why I don't go total profiling sometimes is that all analog amp heads have subtle variations and even speakers do also. Off the same assembly line and yet need dialing in somewhat differently.

Custom is even more variable. You pick the head/combo you did the most.

A profile is a profile of a particular amp. Your JCM800 or Plexi won't be identical to my JCM800 or Plexi. Same with cab sims.

Personally, I have spent just as much time dialing in a tube amp and finding sweet spots and microphone selection and placements maybe more than I did with modelers.

Anyway, my point is just that tube amp + cab sim and the right IR can be so similar in a recording that people are just randomly guessing which is which. So it makes sense that this method even in a small room setting is not only valid but has a good decade-long record of doing just that.

Yeah this is a different argument than the one in your previous post.

But I don't think you're picking up what I'm throwing down - Randy Rhoads' tone and "double tracking" isn't what I'm talking about - I'm talking about the reason Peter Diezel made the 180w Herbert amps for Korn.

pro-tip: It wasn't because of "being heard over screaming fans." It's because of headroom.

 

[TheToneDig]

Ok, I can agree with you that they can be similar to the point that some people may not be able to tell… but that’s not exactly what your rant was alluding to earlier.

What I said earlier was that nobody can tell the difference between a 100W JCM800 and a Marshall Studio 20W in a recording, including if the 20W head used IRs. That's because nobody could either with profiling hitting this benchmark 10 years ago with Kemper.

 

[TheToneDig]

Yeah this is a different argument than the one in your previous post.

But I don't think you're picking up what I'm throwing down - Randy Rhoads' tone and "double tracking" isn't what I'm talking about - I'm talking about the reason Peter Diezel made the 180w Herbert amps for Korn.

pro-tip: It wasn't because of "being heard over screaming fans." It's because of headroom.

How is it different? All I said was that you can't tell the difference between a 100W/20W JCM800 in a recording. Marshall Studios are designed to do exactly just that.

Some amps need power tube saturation for a signature distortion. Others just need the pre-amp section over-driven and can be played at lower volumes. Herbert, EVH 5150III, most high gain amps are good at low volumes. Mesa Rectifier less so. Marshall certainly not. However, I would use an attenuator even with a Herbert for home recording. Why not? You don't have to worry about where the volume is except for the 180W which I wouldn't use a Two-Notes for, but you can because you won't be dialing in over 100W.

By the way, you say headroom, and okay, but we have these amps for the breakup. Do you mean pedal taking? Okay, but we don't need 180W for that, do we? Do you mean the clean tone? Okay, but how many people will tell the clean Herbert from a clean Mesa Boogie in a recording for example? What are we talking about here exactly that we can't do on a 20W or 50W amp with IRs?

Also, it was others who brought up how a 4x12 was important or 100W is important in recording, or talking about headroom, but honestly, I think that debate ended years ago with people not really being able to tell the difference in a recording when it's done right with smaller wattage heads, IRs or even just profiling.

 

[VESmedic]

I am trying to get your point about what a 4x12 offers more than microphone location and speaker choice in a recording situation?

A 4x12 was designed for sending sound over screaming fans. It's a volume over distance issue. Nothing to do with tone. That is why guitarists could achieve the same thing with a 1x12 or 2x12 cab/combo in a recording studio. The reason why some artists use a 4x12 cab in a recording studio is the same reason they use a 1x12 or 2x12. There is probably a choice speaker in there. Just like some amps are a choice over others. Studios tend to collect choice stuff and well-known artists. Like own amp farms and select the one they did the most. A 4x12 doesn't give you the tone you can't get out of a 2x12 at the most for recording. I think sound engineers have found they can do it with 2x12s just as much as 2x12s.

Anyway, from the 1980s onwards, especially with Randy Rhodes, double-tracking is how they got their high gain thickness. So I just don't see why the number of speakers you use matters. It's the number of guitar takes laid down for the mix, IMO. Hence why Two Notes doing Wet/Dry is a fantastic way for a bedroom player to record with a tube head.

Dude, I’m really trying to have a conversation with you, but you are just flat out wrong Man. I’m sorry, I know that it’s not what you want to hear, but it’s the truth.

You are 100 percent right on why a 4x12 cab was designed, and I’m well aware of this. What I’m saying is, that yes it wasn’t designed for tonal reasons, HOWEVER, it just SO HAPPENS to be a wonderful design for the inherent resonant frequencies of a modern electric guitar under heavy distortion. This is what you are missing completely. Whether it was by accident, or whatever, it just so happens to be an absolutely phenomenal design for electric guitars. Hence the reason WHY these guys use nothing but them for heavy guitars. The resonant frequencies ( the ones two notes misses in its loadbox by the way) are just really perfect for modern heavy guitars, simple as that. Anything smaller is just not going to be the same. It’s literally physics, and it’s impossible to argue about. Do 8 inch drums sound the same as 18s? What about 22 inch bass drums vs 18s? So why do you think this is any different?

You can have the same speaker all day, but the cabinet is critical, period. If they weren’t, why don’t we just hang speakers from a mic stand and mic them? Doesn’t sound like a great idea does it? Well why not?

Can you make a smaller enclosure sound good? Yes. Will it have the same low end or depth? Absolutely not, because it’s impossible. There’s really not anymore to argue about this, it’s not an opinion.


Also, you are 100 percent wrong ( again) why an artist may want to use a 4x12 over a 2x12( speaker choices). The record my buddy is working on right now, they auditioned over 26 speakers for the main guitar tones, and 6 cabinets. All 4x12s by the way. Getting the speaker the artist or producer wants is not an issue, and no producer worth his salt is going to use a 2x12 over a 4x12 because he’s too lazy to put that same speaker in a 4x12 cabinet. I don’t know where you come up with these “ well this is probably why” comments, but they are just plain wrong , so please stop with the generalities and your opinions with nothing to back it up.

 

[VESmedic]

I also am going to say this once again because apparently it’s not sinking in… none of the big boys in heavy metal use anything smaller than a 4x12 for recording their records… and I’ve explained why multiple times. I don’t know why you choose to ignore this FACT, but once again, there is a reason why . And you are completely out of touch with this it’s obvious.

 

[TheToneDig]

Dude, I’m really trying to have a conversation with you, but you are just flat out wrong Man. I’m sorry, I know that it’s not what you want to hear, but it’s the truth.

You are 100 percent right on why a 4x12 cab was designed, and I’m well aware of this. What I’m saying is, that yes it wasn’t designed for tonal reasons, HOWEVER, it just SO HAPPENS to be a wonderful design for the inherent resonant frequencies of a modern electric guitar under heavy distortion. This is what you are missing completely. Whether it was by accident, or whatever, it just so happens to be an absolutely phenomenal design for electric guitars. Hence the reason WHY these guys use nothing but them for heavy guitars. The resonant frequencies ( the ones two notes misses in its loadbox by the way) are just really perfect for modern heavy guitars, simple as that. Anything smaller is just not going to be the same. It’s literally physics, and it’s impossible to argue about. Do 8 inch drums sound the same as 18s? What about 22 inch bass drums vs 18s? So why do you think this is any different?

You can have the same speaker all day, but the cabinet is critical, period. If they weren’t, why don’t we just hang speakers from a mic stand and mic them? Doesn’t sound like a great idea does it? Well why not?

Can you make a smaller enclosure sound good? Yes. Will it have the same low end or depth? Absolutely not, because it’s impossible. There’s really not anymore to argue about this, it’s not an opinion.


Also, you are 100 percent wrong ( again) why an artist may want to use a 4x12 over a 2x12( speaker choices). The record my buddy is working on right now, they auditioned over 26 speakers for the main guitar tones, and 6 cabinets. All 4x12s by the way. Getting the speaker the artist or producer wants is not an issue, and no producer worth his salt is going to use a 2x12 over a 4x12 because he’s too lazy to put that same speaker in a 4x12 cabinet. I don’t know where you come up with these “ well this is probably why” comments, but they are just plain wrong , so please stop with the generalities and your opinions with nothing to back it up.

I have used the term cab sim since the start. Quote me on this speaker-only-ism you seem to be laying on me for some reason.

Two notes is a cab sim, for example.

IRs also capture the cab's resonance. It is not omitted. Where are you getting it from that cab sims and IRs don't capture the cab's resonance?

Any cab sim I have used has involved IRs capturing a cab's resonance. It's the main difference between two cabs with the same speaker config in them. Why do you think cab simulators aren't capable of that?

Not only are they capable of that, but you can have a 20W Greenback 1x12 IR for a 180W Herbert head in a loadbox if you wanted. Do that in reality and you will blow that speaker.

 

[TheToneDig]

I also am going to say this once again because apparently it’s not sinking in… none of the big boys in heavy metal use anything smaller than a 4x12 for recording their records… and I’ve explained why multiple times. I don’t know why you choose to ignore this FACT, but once again, there is a reason why . And you are completely out of touch with this it’s obvious.

I said they have choice speakers for recording. If you don't want to accept that, then fine, but that's my answer.

Gojira uses Two-Notes Torpedo live on stage and we are not even talking about recording. They have the sound of one of the heaviest heavy metal sounds there is. EVH 5150III 50W red channel.

 

[DanTravis62]

How is it different? All I said was that you can't tell the difference between a 100W/20W JCM800 in a recording. Marshall Studios are designed to do exactly just that.

Some amps need power tube saturation for a signature distortion. Others just need the pre-amp section over-driven and can be played at lower volumes. Herbert, EVH 5150III, most high gain amps are good at low volumes. Mesa Rectifier less so. Marshall certainly not. However, I would use an attenuator even with a Herbert for home recording. Why not? You don't have to worry about where the volume is except for the 180W which I wouldn't use a Two-Notes for, but you can because you won't be dialing in over 100W.

By the way, you say headroom, and okay, but we have these amps for the breakup. Do you mean pedal taking? Okay, but we don't need 180W for that, do we? Do you mean the clean tone? Okay, but how many people will tell the clean Herbert from a clean Mesa Boogie in a recording for example? What are we talking about here exactly that we can't do on a 20W or 50W amp with IRs?

Also, it was others who brought up how a 4x12 was important or 100W is important in recording, or talking about headroom, but honestly, I think that debate ended years ago with people not really being able to tell the difference in a recording when it's done right with smaller wattage heads, IRs or even just profiling.

Okay it's very clear you really, really do not understand how this (recording modern metal guitar) works. It doesn't work exactly the same as vintage guitar sounds.

Headroom in this case isn't just about "taking pedals"; it's how clear and clean the low end transients on heavily distorted and/or downtuned guitars translate from guitar to amp to cab/ir to recording.

Think about the example I gave you about old fender amps, and keep it in your mind.

If you are playing modern metal, and use a low wattage head, with smaller iron, and lower power handling between the power/pre/PI, there is a lack of headroom for those low frequency transients. It's just not quite as obvious for the untrained ear as the old tweed Champ example.

The higher the preamp gain is (as in, for heavily distorted rhythm guitar) the more this lack of headroom comes into play.

Think about how hard that preamp (with all that gain) is pushing the PI/power amp/transformers in those types of tones.

The PI/power/iron is a bottleneck for low end in modern high gain tones.

It isn't remotely as simple as you're moving the goalposts to make it. If you take a profiled snapshot of a Kemper, of a big iron amp doing this, you can absolutely simulate it to where the difference is indiscernible to most; but what does NOT work, and is NOT indiscernible, is trying to use smaller amps to achieve the power section headroom that gives modern metal it's distinctive "tight" sounds.

 

[VESmedic]

I have used the term cab sim since the start. Quote me on this speaker-only-ism you seem to be laying on me for some reason.

Two notes is a cab sim, for example.

IRs also capture the cab's resonance. It is not omitted. Where are you getting it from that cab sims and IRs don't capture the cab's resonance?

Any cab sim I have used has involved IRs capturing a cab's resonance. It's the main difference between two cabs with the same speaker config in them. Why do you think cab simulators aren't capable of that?

Not only are they capable of that, but you can have a 20W Greenback 1x12 IR for a 180W Herbert head in a loadbox if you wanted. Do that in reality and you will blow that speaker.

Let me get this straight… you wrote a book on home recording, but you aren’t familiar with impedence curves and how different load boxes are more accurate than others? And how, for instance, the two notes load box has a low shelf that is absolutely NOTHING like the actual impedence curve of a 4x12 speaker cabinet which has a sharp resonant spike often in the 90-120hz region? Is that what I’m reading here?

 

[VESmedic]

I said they have choice speakers for recording. If you don't want to accept that, then fine, but that's my answer.

Gojira uses Two-Notes Torpedo live on stage and we are not even talking about recording. They have the sound of one of the heaviest heavy metal sounds there is. EVH 5150III 50W red channel.

They absolutely do, and they sound great live, as do many other bands. I never once said they can’t sound good, please post to where I said that. What I did say, again more from a recording perspective( ya know, like the book you wrote) is that they are far from accurate in their frequency response compared to other load boxes on the market.

 

[TheToneDig]

Okay it's very clear you really, really do not understand how this (recording modern metal guitar) works. It doesn't work exactly the same as vintage guitar sounds.

Headroom in this case isn't just about "taking pedals"; it's how clear and clean the low end transients on heavily distorted and/or downtuned guitars translate from guitar to amp to cab/ir to recording.

Think about the example I gave you about old fender amps, and keep it in your mind.

If you are playing modern metal, and use a low wattage head, with smaller iron, and lower power handling between the power/pre/PI, there is a lack of headroom for those low frequency transients. It's just not quite as obvious for the untrained ear as the old tweed Champ example.

The higher the preamp gain is (as in, for heavily distorted rhythm guitar) the more this lack of headroom comes into play.

Think about how hard that preamp (with all that gain) is pushing the PI/power amp/transformers in those types of tones.

The PI/power/iron is a bottleneck for low end in modern high gain tones.

It isn't remotely as simple as you're moving the goalposts to make it. If you take a profiled snapshot of a Kemper, of a big iron amp doing this, you can absolutely simulate it to where the difference is indiscernible to most; but what does NOT work, and is NOT indiscernible, is trying to use smaller amps to achieve the power section headroom that gives modern metal it's distinctive "tight" sounds.

I talked about breakup points already, so I clearly understood what headroom is about.

Look this really is simple. Change my mind. Show me the JCM800 vs 20W SC20h shootout in a recording where people can tell the difference. All I can see on here and YouTube are people failing that blind test all the time.

 

[TheToneDig]

Let me get this straight… you wrote a book on home recording, but you aren’t familiar with impedence curves and how different load boxes are more accurate than others? And how, for instance, the two notes load box has a low shelf that is absolutely NOTHING like the actual impedence curve of a 4x12 speaker cabinet which has a sharp resonant spike often in the 90-120hz region? Is that what I’m reading here?

If you are right then show me where sound engineers have demonstrated you need a 4x12 in a recording studio to get a certain sound which can't be done with IR.

Thanks.

 

[jchrisf]

For the record.. I'm the OP and this is my OP below. I am not trying to record anything. I just want a huge tone at home

I love that the people here at Rig Talk are hard rockers and have some of the coolest amps. I'm curious for those of you that have all these cool, high watt amps.. what do you play at home? And if it is your big amp, how do you do it without making your ears bleed and does it sound good at home volumes?

I'd also be curious for those that have a mini amp along with its big brother which one sounds the best at home volumes?

 

[VESmedic]

If you are right then show me where sound engineers have demonstrated you need a 4x12 in a recording studio to get a certain sound which can't be done with IR.

Thanks.

Buddy…. We aren’t talking about IR’s… we are talking about the loadbox which takes the amps LOAD so that you can use an IR… the IR capture is one thing, and I’m not even going to pretend to say I can hear the difference between an IR and the actual mic’d up cabinet. However I do know people who can and can get it right more often than not. I’m not debating IR’s are great, I use them all the time myself as well as my real cabs mic’d up, no question they are great.


You are once again missing the point here: not all load boxes are created equal. So regardless of how well your IR is captured, if the loadbox can’t reproduce the resonant frequencies that are natural to the amp as if it were mic’d and feeding a real cabinet, it’s not going to matter. Once again, it is not folk lore or myth that all load boxes are not the same and some not being near as accurate as others. The two notes torpedo and captor are two of those units that are proven with electronic measurement by cliff at fractal audio, John suhr of suhr amps, driftwood amplification, and st rock, to be not an accurate representation of the interaction between an actual cabinet and amplifier. I also ONCE AGAIN would be happy to show you just how different these units can sound, and do sound.

 

[TheToneDig]

They absolutely do, and they sound great live, as do many other bands. I never once said they can’t sound good, please post to where I said that. What I did say, again more from a recording perspective( ya know, like the book you wrote) is that they are far from accurate in their frequency response compared to other load boxes on the market.

Your position has been that heavy bands always use 4x12 for great heavy tones. I showed a band that has some of the heaviest on the planet and doesn't even use guitar cabs. I am certainly not pushing this idea 4x12 is the only way like you are, especially for recording. It is one choice of many and a lot can be done on small cabs and sometimes no cab at all and just IR.

Frequency response is just a way for manufacturers to test that a speaker meets a specification for frequency curve and that's it. Speakers are non-functional without an amp sending a signal through them. So that circuit matters. This is why your EQ curve can be radically different from them. Frequency response is good for differentiating between speakers and relative to each other that way. I don't see why you think IRs can't emulate a cab or speaker this way. You can fine-tune IRs also. Even more so than an actual physical cab in some cases because you can overlap mics in the same spot. You can control a speaker's age also.

Hence why I advocate a wet/dry setup.

 

[DanTravis62]

I talked about breakup points already, so I clearly understood what headroom is about.

Look this really is simple. Change my mind. Show me the JCM800 vs 20W SC20h shootout in a recording where people can tell the difference. All I can see on here and YouTube are people failing that blind test all the time.

You're moving the goalposts, .... Again.

This isn't even remotely about you, or anyone else being able to tell the difference on YouTube clips between whatever random amps you've chosen. The 2203 thing isn't even close to the point. I'm not arguing that.

In this case, what I am arguing, is that headroom is an unambiguous physical property of amp circuits, that in specific use cases, can yield dramatically different results.

And obviously, you very much don't understand what I am talking about concerning headroom.

Most likely because you are unfamiliar with the use-case @VESmedic and I are talking about, and oversimplifying it; because you've written a book about it and want to come off as a font of knowledge.