Question for the high wattage amp guys here about playing at home

[DanTravis62]

For the record.. I'm the OP and this is my OP below. I am not trying to record anything. I just want a huge tone at home

We know.

But someone, someday, is going to come across this post, and I don't want some metal kid to waste a whole bunch of time and money trying to achieve certain tones (like I did) because they listened to advice that wasn't relevant to them.

 

[jchrisf]

We know.

But someone, someday, is going to come across this post, and I don't want some metal kid to waste a whole bunch of time and money trying to achieve certain tones (like I did) because they listened to advice that wasn't relevant to them.

Yep, I should have bought a big amp and cab a loooonnnggg time ago.

 

[TheToneDig]

You're moving the goalposts, .... Again.

View attachment 93807

This isn't even remotely about you, or anyone else being able to tell the difference on YouTube clips between whatever random amps you've chosen. The 2203 thing isn't even close to the point. I'm not arguing that.

In this case, what I am arguing, is that headroom is an unambiguous physical property of amp circuits, that in specific use cases, can yield dramatically different results.

And obviously, you very much don't understand what I am talking about concerning headroom.

Most likely because you are unfamiliar with the use-case @VESmedic and I are talking about, and oversimplifying it; because you've written a book about it and want to come off as a font of knowledge.

The OP is about high wattage amps at home. I mentioned that in a recording a Marshall Studio 20W will be indistinguishable from a 100 JCM800. That it is no problem to use smaller wattage amps that are up to the task and have a loadbox with IRs if you need master volume power tube crunch. That was my original point and always will be.

You said, no way, headroom. Apparently, I don't understand something. So aside from the fact that yes, the 100W has more headroom, can you actually show us a clip from a recording you are talking about? What is it we can't do with less wattage and IRs in a recording? I would like to hear this for myself, thanks.

 

[VESmedic]

Your position has been that heavy bands always use 4x12 for great heavy tones. I showed a band that has some of the heaviest on the planet and doesn't even use guitar cabs. I am certainly not pushing this idea 4x12 is the only way like you are, especially for recording. It is one choice of many and a lot can be done on small cabs and sometimes no cab at all and just IR.

Frequency response is just a way for manufacturers to test that a speaker meets a specification for frequency curve and that's it. Speakers are non-functional without an amp sending a signal through them. So that circuit matters. This is why your EQ curve can be radically different from them. Frequency response is good for differentiating between speakers and relative to each other that way. I don't see why you think IRs can't emulate a cab or speaker this way. You can fine-tune IRs also. Even more so than an actual physical cab in some cases because you can overlap mics in the same spot. You can control a speaker's age also.

Hence why I advocate a wet/dry setup.

Oh boy… even I’m exhausted now…


Let me make this really clear.

1. Smaller cabs can sound great
2. They will never sound like a 4x12
3. I am not talking about playing live
4. Modern heavy tones are done with 4x12 cabs ( Or IR’s of 4x12s since you are hellbent on this) for a reason. This isn’t even a debatable conversation.
5. Load boxes aren’t the same, some are much worse than others.
6. Gojira and many other bands use load boxes LIVE and sound great( they also have an amazing FOH engineer)
7. Load boxes aren’t all the same.
8. Load boxes aren’t all the same.
9. Load boxes aren’t all the same.
10. IR ‘s can emulate speaker/mic combinations just fine.
11. IR’s can emulate speaker/mic combinations just fine.
12. IR’s can emulate speaker/mic combinations just fine.

Does that about cover it, or am I still not making sense to you?

 

[TheToneDig]

For the record.. I'm the OP and this is my OP below. I am not trying to record anything. I just want a huge tone at home

This.

No 4x12s. Low wattage amps can be done also.



or this...

 

[DanTravis62]

Yep, I should have bought a big amp and cab a loooonnnggg time ago.

Yep. If you want it to sound huge, you're going to have to go big.

If space is an issue - you may have to compromise on some part of that.

If volume is an issue - you may have to compromise on some part of that.

 

[VESmedic]

This.

No 4x12s. Low wattage amps can be done also.



or this...

Yes…. Because showing YouTube videos of a hobbyist, a pro who doesn’t use The two notes on his real records, and a guy who gets paid over 2 grand to review an item, totally refuted my point about 4x12s and their use….none of these guys are making a video on making a pro sounding record, are they? Do fluff and ola get great tones? Absolutely! Would they get great tones with an IR as well as a real mic and cab? 100 percent yes. No one here has once said you can’t get great tones at home without a 4x12. Show me where anyone said that? Or better yet, show me where I said that?


Look man. You can try and wheedle your way out of this one all you want, that’s fine, we both know what I’m saying here.

 

[Bardagh]

I had our basement built out last year and have a two room studio space. One room is a treated mixing room/my “office” and the other is reasonably soundproofed. There were some compromises I had to make on the sound isolation (could not avoid holes in the ceiling for light/hvac) but we mitigated them as best we could. I do have sound treatments in the cab room too but those are for soaking up nasty reflections, they don’t really do anything to reduce noise transference.

The end result was surprisingly good. I can crank shit up in there and with the door closed the sound from my monitors drowns out any bleed from the cab room. It is louder than that upstairs but not too bad. For just jamming where I want it turned up a bit but not to where it’s uncomfortable to be in the direct path of the sound, nobody can hear it in any other part of the house.

Hands down best money I’ve ever spent!

 

[DanTravis62]

The OP is about high wattage amps at home. I mentioned that in a recording a Marshall Studio 20W will be indistinguishable from a 100 JCM800. That it is no problem to use smaller wattage amps that are up to the task and have a loadbox with IRs if you need master volume power tube crunch. That was my original point and always will be.

You said, no way, headroom. Apparently, I don't understand something. So aside from the fact that yes, the 100W has more headroom, can you actually show us a clip from a recording you are talking about? What is it we can't do with less wattage and IRs in a recording? I would like to hear this for myself, thanks.

Master volume power tube crunch has less than nothing to do with the sounds I'm talking about.

What you cannot do, is simulate the effect of big iron and a high headroom amp on the low end transients/response of heavy modern metal guitar sounds with a 20 watt amp. Or at least any of the dozens I've played and heard.

The reason this is a sticking point, is because most modern heavy sounds rely on that "tight" low end response (not FREQUENCY, response; as in transients) to hit right.

Once the volume/gain is hitting hard enough for those sounds on 20 watt amps, they are bottlenecked by the power section and the low end response (not FREQUENCY) is different because it doesn't have enough headroom.

It doesn't matter if the 20w amp is going into an IR, a real cab, or the loaf pincher between your ass cheeks; because the bottleneck is happening in the power section of the amp.

This "squish" that happens is highly desirable for certain sounds though; it can make it far easier to attain "brown sound" type tones and works great for leads.

But it is anathema to modern heavy rhythm guitar.

 

[rstites]

What you cannot do, is simulate the effect of big iron and a high headroom amp on the low end transients/response of heavy modern metal guitar sounds with a 20 watt amp. Or at least any of the dozens I've played and heard.

FWIW, you can certainly do this with a 20W (or even lower) amp. It's not really the amount of power. It's the design of the power section. You can design a 20W power section to be as tight and reactive as the 100W, if that's your design goal. This is all down to power section design, and really has nothing to do with actual power output.

From a purely practical POV, I can't recommend anything to try as I've never much bothered with low wattage amplifiers for guitar. I've got a pile of 100W around and am happy with them. Probably, it isn't practical as a 20W amplifier designed that way would cost too close to the 100W version to be marketable, I suppose.

 

[TheToneDig]

Master volume power tube crunch has less than nothing to do with the sounds I'm talking about.

What you cannot do, is simulate the effect of big iron and a high headroom amp on the low end transients/response of heavy modern metal guitar sounds with a 20 watt amp. Or at least any of the dozens I've played and heard.

The reason this is a sticking point, is because most modern heavy sounds rely on that "tight" low end response (not FREQUENCY, response; as in transients) to hit right.

Once the volume/gain is hitting hard enough for those sounds on 20 watt amps, they are bottlenecked by the power section and the low end response (not FREQUENCY) is different because it doesn't have enough headroom.

It doesn't matter if the 20w amp is going into an IR, a real cab, or the loaf pincher between your ass cheeks; because the bottleneck is happening in the power section of the amp.

This "squish" that happens is highly desirable for certain sounds though; it can make it far easier to attain "brown sound" type tones and works great for leads.

But it is anathema to modern heavy rhythm guitar.

I have heard this low-end response debate before and I disagree with your position.

Even though a 100W high-gain amp will have more bottom-end, what happens is that... it doesn't matter.

The guitar is a mid-range instrument. Moreso, the heavy modern metal tone you are talking about, is still a mid-range tone. The overdriven sound is a mid-range bump. The lower mid-range is something the speaker type is probably more important for than the amps bottom end.

Even then that bottom end will get lost in the mix with the bass and drums. Live or recorded. You only get the benefits from it in isolation and even then recordings and blind tests have shown people are mostly guessing.

Sorry dude, but I just disagree with you on this one. If you want more bottom end from a Studio Marshall then use an EQ.

 

[VESmedic]

I have heard this low-end response debate before and I disagree with your position.

Even though a 100W high-gain amp will have more bottom-end, what happens is that... it doesn't matter.

The guitar is a mid-range instrument. Moreso, the heavy modern metal tone you are talking about, is still a mid-range tone. The overdriven sound is a mid-range bump. The lower mid-range is something the speaker type is probably more important for than the amps bottom end.

Even then that bottom end will get lost in the mix with the bass and drums. Live or recorded. You only get the benefits from it in isolation and even then recordings and blind tests have shown people are mostly guessing.

Sorry dude, but I just disagree with you on this one. If you want more bottom end from a Studio Marshall then use an EQ.

Disagree all you want… your myths about low end on guitars in a mix is just that, a myth. No, your low end doesn’t get lost in a mix if the engineer knows what he’s doing. What records are you listening to? What modern ( the last 20-30 years) heavy records are you referencing that show case this?






Does that sound like a guitar with neutered low end? I can hear all instruments perfectly on all parts of this, the bloom on the low end of the guitars is some of the deepest I’ve ever heard… are you really going to sit here and keep perpetuating these myths that you have no experience or tangible knowledge on why you feel that way? Or are these just more “well this is probably” type comments?

 

[rstites]

I’ll disagree completely on the cab statements towards the end, 100 percent. Again, if someone can show me an example where it “didnt matter”, I’ll be happy to listen, but that would mean a ton of work to actually be done right. 2 mixes, done right, one with a 4x12 and one with a 1x12 with the exact same speaker, same mic position etc.

I'd be curious to hear that, but until some produces proof, I'll remain skeptical. Think about what causes a 4x12 to differ from a 2x12 or a 1x12 in sound out front: it's phase cancellation. That's it. Cab volume, baffling, response of the specific speaker, etc. are all going to changing the response of the cab far more than speaker configuration from the perspective of a mic on center of a single speaker. Anyhow, the physics all suggest the above, so I tend to stick with assuming that's right until someone provides the proof to the contrary.

Yes, plenty of people use 4x12s for recording, but that doesn't prove anything about the actual sound. It just proves that musicians are just as prone to following the crowd as anyone else. Everyone else shows up with their 100W+4x12, so of course you're going to do it, and on down the line. I'm not claiming any kind of high ground here either, as I've mostly recorded 100W+4x12 in my years, which is part of what gives me the right to poke fun at it too.

 

[TheToneDig]

Disagree all you want… your myths about low end on guitars in a mix is just that, a myth. No, your low end doesn’t get lost in a mix if the engineer knows what he’s doing. What records are you listening to? What modern ( the last 20-30 years) heavy records are you referencing that show case this?






Does that sound like a guitar with neutered low end? I can hear all instruments perfectly on all parts of this, the bloom on the low end of the guitars is some of the deepest I’ve ever heard… are you really going to sit here and keep perpetuating these myths that you have no experience or tangible knowledge on why you feel that way? Or are these just more “well this is probably” type comments?

A sound engineer is going to be focusing on the guitar's mid-range because it won't be able to compete with the drums and bass on the low-end.

If you want to really call that myth fine, but what frequencies do you claim that 100W high gain amps have some special ability to do in the low-end that matters in a mix?

Is that video the example you want to use? Whitechapel is known to use Kempers, just so you know.

 

[DanTravis62]

I have heard this low-end response debate before and I disagree with your position.

Even though a 100W high-gain amp will have more bottom-end, what happens is that... it doesn't matter.

The guitar is a mid-range instrument. Moreso, the heavy modern metal tone you are talking about, is still a mid-range tone. The overdriven sound is a mid-range bump. The lower mid-range is something the speaker type is probably more important for than the amps bottom end.

Even then that bottom end will get lost in the mix with the bass and drums. Live or recorded. You only get the benefits from it in isolation and even then recordings and blind tests have shown people are mostly guessing.

Sorry dude, but I just disagree with you on this one. If you want more bottom end from a Studio Marshall then use an EQ.

Apparently you are completely unaware of the difference between frequency response and low end transient response, even though I specifically pointed out that they are completely and utterly different things.

And at this point this isn't an "agree to disagree;" this is you being being willfully ignorant to the information I'm giving you.

 

[DanTravis62]

From a purely practical POV, I can't recommend anything to try as I've never much bothered with low wattage amplifiers for guitar. I've got a pile of 100W around and am happy with them. Probably, it isn't practical as a 20W amplifier designed that way would cost too close to the 100W version to be marketable, I suppose.

That's because they don't exist, and for the exact reason you mentioned - they would have to have the same size and handling transformers etc.

 

[DanTravis62]

If you want to really call that myth fine, but what frequencies do you claim that 100W high gain amps have some special ability to do in the low-end that matters in a mix?

IT ISNT ABOUT THE FREQUENCY FOR THE LOVE OF GOD

 

[VESmedic]

I'd be curious to hear that, but until some produces proof, I'll remain skeptical. Think about what causes a 4x12 to differ from a 2x12 or a 1x12 in sound out front: it's phase cancellation. That's it. Cab volume, baffling, response of the specific speaker, etc. are all going to changing the response of the cab far more than speaker configuration from the perspective of a mic on center of a single speaker. Anyhow, the physics all suggest the above, so I tend to stick with assuming that's right until someone provides the proof to the contrary.

Yes, plenty of people use 4x12s for recording, but that doesn't prove anything about the actual sound. It just proves that musicians are just as prone to following the crowd as anyone else. Everyone else shows up with their 100W+4x12, so of course you're going to do it, and on down the line. I'm not claiming any kind of high ground here either, as I've mostly recorded 100W+4x12 in my years, which is part of what gives me the right to poke fun at it too.

You don’t think, that some of the top producers in metal and hard rock all using a 4x12 and NOTHING BUT a 4x12 on their records: the records we all grew up listening to, holds any weight at all in this conversation? We aren’t talking about musicians here: we are talking about the guys who PRODUCE these records and these tones we grew up on. I couldn’t care less what a musician uses live or whatever. I am talking about the engineered tones that got on to the record: which the producer and engineer almost always have the responsibility for getting. And you think that they use 4x12s“ just because” and “ go along with the crowd”? Really?

I can assure you, 100 percent, they don’t. At all.

 

[rstites]

For the record.. I'm the OP and this is my OP below. I am not trying to record anything. I just want a huge tone at home

Yeah, these threads get a life of their own. Hopefully, you found something to excite you to play and have fun.

If you have the funds, space, and volume ability, go for whatever gets you excited. I'll plug into my 100W amps at home on a regular basis. They're a ton of fun. No reason, not to. I still probably play more unplugged than anything else at home, but it's nice to have options.

 

[VESmedic]

A sound engineer is going to be focusing on the guitar's mid-range because it won't be able to compete with the drums and bass on the low-end.

If you want to really call that myth fine, but what frequencies do you claim that 100W high gain amps have some special ability to do in the low-end that matters in a mix?

Is that video the example you want to use? Whitechapel is known to use Kempers, just so you know.

chapel uses Kemper’s live. Profiled tones from the records my closest friend in the world produces, and has produced for over a decade. Including my own personal amps on their records. So yes, I’m well aware of what chapel does and doesn’t do… that tone on in the video? Not a Kemper.