Sell your mark IIC+: the black album was a mark 3.

VESmedic said:
Are you really trying to say something about their tone and how they may have or have not dialed it in? Seriously…. Think about what/who you’re criticizing right now….
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Not sure if this is sarcasm or not? Bass up to 10 is flub city. MOP was bass around 0-3 or so according to the Flemming notes. If you ever play a mark, you'll soon realize that the bass knob is more a "distortion pick attack" knob, since the knob eq is early in the circuit. I never played a IIC+, but I love the IV.
 
shadow said:
Not sure if this is sarcasm or not? Bass up to 10 is flub city. MOP was bass around 0-3 or so according to the Flemming notes. If you ever play a mark, you'll soon realize that the bass knob is more a "distortion pick attack" knob, since the knob eq is early in the circuit. I never played a IIC+, but I love the IV.
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Guys, I’m well aware of what happens with a mark series with the bass on 10. My point is, someone is criticizing a band that got some of the most iconic guitar sounds in history. My other point is, some times in certain situations , things just WORK. I can run my rev F recto with the bass ON TEN ALL THE TIME, for certain things. That goes against every ideology and Internet forum expert dogma associated with those amps ever, but guess what. In certain signal chains and songs and tunings, it sounds amazing.


My point is before people roll their eyes or think they know some things, remember: you don’t . And you didn’t create some of the most iconic tones in history, nor does anyone have a clue what was going on with the amp in that picture etc. to assume that’s where the knob was during a recording is pretty asinine to say the least to begin with.
 
VESmedic said:
Guys, I’m well aware of what happens with a mark series with the bass on 10. My point is, someone is criticizing a band that got some of the most iconic guitar sounds in history. My other point is, some times in certain situations , things just WORK. I can run my rev F recto with the bass ON TEN ALL THE TIME, for certain things. That goes against every ideology and Internet forum expert dogma associated with those amps ever, but guess what. In certain signal chains and songs and tunings, it sounds amazing.


My point is before people roll their eyes or think they know some things, remember: you don’t . And you didn’t create some of the most iconic tones in history, nor does anyone have a clue what was going on with the amp in that picture etc. to assume that’s where the knob was during a recording is pretty asinine to say the least to begin with.
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Well, I know that pic is taken when the amp was on display at Orion Fest. It’s not from a studio or live situation so those settings don’t mean anything.

If anyone is interested in settings for this amp however, the notes for AJFA are available on Flemming Rasmussens website. Yes, it was the same amp. Unless Flemming mistakenly wrote down the wrong amp used no less then 3 times in his notes. “Amp Lead A” is all over the notes. Same amp.

http://www.fwrproduction.com/FWR_Produktion/Notes_2.html
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VESmedic said:
Guys, I’m well aware of what happens with a mark series with the bass on 10. My point is, someone is criticizing a band that got some of the most iconic guitar sounds in history. My other point is, some times in certain situations , things just WORK. I can run my rev F recto with the bass ON TEN ALL THE TIME, for certain things. That goes against every ideology and Internet forum expert dogma associated with those amps ever, but guess what. In certain signal chains and songs and tunings, it sounds amazing.


My point is before people roll their eyes or think they know some things, remember: you don’t . And you didn’t create some of the most iconic tones in history, nor does anyone have a clue what was going on with the amp in that picture etc. to assume that’s where the knob was during a recording is pretty asinine to say the least to begin with.
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If you think I'm criticizing Metallica for their iconic black album tone, then something is getting lost in the translation here. I was making fun of a picture of a boogie with bass knob on 10. That's it. Nothing more. Someone could have easily turned a knob before taking the photo. I don't believe for one moment that the boogie settings- that boogie - was the black album tone.
Rectos on 10 is simply not the same as marks on 10, it's not the same style of circuit and response, I suppose you could get away with that with alder and emg81.
You're waaaaay off in your asumption of me criticizing tallica for their black album tone, I don't get that at all. I love listening to the intro to through the never just for the guitar, and when the rest of the band kicks in, the guitar pick attack still cuts through like a hot knife through butter. I think the IIC+ is the first "boutique" high gain prod amp ever? '82? 83'? A youtuber said '84.
 
VESmedic said:
My other point is, some times in certain situations , things just WORK. I can run my rev F recto with the bass ON TEN ALL THE TIME, for certain things. That goes against every ideology and Internet forum expert dogma associated with those amps ever, but guess what. In certain signal chains and songs and tunings, it sounds amazing.
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I agree. For example, my DR Rev C actually sounds pretty killer with the bass dimed, and there's also a killer tone I can get with my IIB+ Coli with treble, mid & bass all on 10. (Only Colis have the balls to pull this off, though..)

EVERYTHING in the signal chain matters. For guys to obsess on settings I find kind of a waste of time as that's only one link in the chain. And, that's not even talking about recording where everything you dialed in from the room completely changes again.
 
Yes… I’m well that the circuit is completely different in the recto vs the mark series…. I knew someone would get fixated on that, but that was not at all my point. My point was about using unusual settings, regardless of the amp. That is the point. And it can very much apply to a Mesa mark series or any other amp on the planet. People use crazy settings and sometimes the signal chain and the Sum of everything just works. I tend to agree with you that the bass was probably not on 10, I get what you’re saying. But try to understand what I’m saying. You may not mean to criticize them, but that’s essentially what you are doing without even realizing it. People do shit like that all the time, hell me too. But if you really stop and think about what you’re saying, you’ll realize why it sounds silly. If Metallica had all their knobs on zero and they still sounded like them, who is to argue that?
 
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VESmedic said:
Yes… I’m well that the circuit is completely different in the recto vs the mark series…. I knew someone would get fixated on that, but that was not at all my point. My point was about using unusual settings, regardless of the amp. That is the point. And it can very much apply to a Mesa mark series or any other amp on the planet. People use crazy settings and sometimes the signal chain and the Sum of everything just works. I tend to agree with you that the bass was probably not on 10, I get what you’re saying. But try to understand what I’m saying. You may not mean to criticize them, but that’s essentially what you are doing without even realizing it. People do shit like that all the time, hell me too. But if you really stop and think about what you’re saying, you’ll realize why it sounds silly. If Metallica had all their knobs on zero and they still sounded like them, who is to argue that?
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I totally get what you are saying. The sum of everything works. Because if you look at Flemmings notes and set you Mark IIC+ like that, you’re sure as hell not gonna sound like AJFA. That’s just one part of the puzzle.

This is also why you’re reasoning doesn’t add up here. You are aware that they used a lot of EQ and other stuff, not just the amp straight in. But when you are saying that AJFA and TBA sounds like a Mark III and not a Mark IIC+, you are referring to a stock IIC+ straight in? DRG, HRG? What amp is really your reference here? What Mark III is your reference?

James used a IIC++, which is obviously different from a stock IIC+, they are voiced more aggressively, the mids sits differently, it’s tighter, more gain etc. The amp is then slaved into a Strategy 400 power amp which also takes it to another level of power and low end thump. Then of course the Aphex PEQs play a major part. TBA is probably the ADA MQ-1 as well. And then the cabs, speakers, mics etc.

Saying that the IIC+ is a shit amp because they weren’t recording with it straight in is also a weird way to see it. How many albums isn’t recorded with a boosted Recto, a boosted 5150, modded Marshall and so on? That doesn’t make them shit amps.

I get that you made this thread to stir up some shit. And I can only speak for myself here, but I don’t see anyone being butthurt about the fact that Bob says it was a Mark III. People are arguing against it because it’s most likely not true, not because they are feeling butthurt and need to defend their expensive IIC+.
Are they overpriced? Yes, definitely. And I think most people, IIC+ owners or not agree. But the market is what it is.
 
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NineShallDie said:
I totally get what you are saying. The sum of everything works. Because if you look at Flemmings notes and set you Mark IIC+ like that, you’re sure as hell not gonna sound like AJFA. That’s just one part of the puzzle.

This is also why you’re reasoning doesn’t add up here. You are aware that they used a lot of EQ and other stuff, not just the amp straight in. But when you are saying that AJFA and TBA sounds like a Mark III and not a Mark IIC+, you are referring to a stock IIC+ straight in? DRG, HRG? What amp is really your reference here? What Mark III is your reference?

James used a IIC++, which is obviously different from a stock IIC+, they are voiced more aggressively, the mids sits differently, it’s tighter, more gain etc. The amp is then slaved into a Strategy 400 power amp which also takes it to another level of power and low end thump. Then of course the Aphex PEQs play a major part. TBA is probably the ADA MQ-1 as well. And then the cabs, speakers, mics etc.

Saying that the IIC+ is a shit amp because they weren’t recording with it straight in is also a weird way to see it. How many albums isn’t recorded with a boosted Recto, a boosted 5150, modded Marshall and so on? That doesn’t make them shit amps.

I get that you made this thread to stir up some shit. And I can only speak for myself here, but I don’t see anyone being butthurt about the fact that Bob says it was a Mark III. People are arguing against it because it’s most likely not true, not because they are feeling butthurt and need to defend their expensive IIC+.
Are they overpriced? Yes, definitely. And I think most people, IIC+ owners or not agree. But the market is what it is.
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1. I never said the 2C+ Is a shit amp. I did for sure say it’s completely overrated and virtually has never been used on its own for heavy rhythm tones on a modern metal record, yet it’s some reason revered by that crowd. I’m here to give people a reality check, the internet for sure needs it.

2. Just because you use a ton of eq, does not mean you can change certain tonality/tonalities about an amp. I can eq a recto all day long, it’s still going to behave and sound like a recto, still have the dynamics of a recto, still have the saturation and gain structure of a recto. This is an all too common misconception, that you can just eq everything. You can’t. I’m sure you are aware of this, but it’s definitely worth mentioning in this thread. This is why to me personally, and some others ears that I trust, think it DOES sound more like a mark 3, given my experience with them. Doesn’t mean it’s true, sure, but that is definitely my opinion.

3. The fact that they never once used the amp straight in( I’m talking before it gets into the console) kinda is relevant to me. It would be one thing if the amp was established on its own on all these metal records, but it’s not, ever. So you take away Metallica, and you are left with dream theater: the only remotely heavy band that has used this amp “straight in”. The fact that flemming and rock had to slave it into other amps every single time, tells me something. Would it have sounded great on its own? Who knows? It probably would have, but it sure as hell wouldn’t have sounded like THAT.

There is no doubt the mark series amps are the closest amps to getting the classic Metallica tones of those records, totally agree with all of that. I’m simply saying, outside of nostalgia, these amps are not even close to being as tried and true and tested as people make them out to be for this style of music. Constantly all over the net you’ll hear “ OMGZ best metal amp everz!”. Yet when you ask them what iconic tones outside of Metallica who didn’t even come close to using the amp by itself were created with it, suddenly people are defensive and pissed off. Sorry if the truth hurts, but it’s reality. If you like the sound of them, there’s is absolutely nothing wrong with that! Seriously, as with anything, use what you want of course. But you simply can’t compare this amp to other amps that are staples in whatever genre of music said amp is supposively great for; there’s no denying why a plexi is famous, a twin reverb, a recto, a 5150, whatever. The list is long and distinguished why those amps are revered.
 
Dino 939 said:
Agreed.
Knowing channel 3 well, F’N KILLER!
I can hear and feel it.
That’s also the sound of Chevelle
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Ok, so it was a mark IV then? Is that what we are going with now? Or did James misremember this as well? Or did bob rock misremember? Are the two guys who recorded arguably the greatest sound metal records ever just, misremembering everything now? So the mark IV should be 10 grand now?



This is exactly my point….
 
VESmedic said:
1. I never said the 2C+ Is a shit amp. I did for sure say it’s completely overrated and virtually has never been used on its own for heavy rhythm tones on a modern metal record, yet it’s some reason revered by that crowd. I’m here to give people a reality check, the internet for sure needs it.

2. Just because you use a ton of eq, does not mean you can change certain tonality/tonalities about an amp. I can eq a recto all day long, it’s still going to behave and sound like a recto, still have the dynamics of a recto, still have the saturation and gain structure of a recto. This is an all too common misconception, that you can just eq everything. You can’t. I’m sure you are aware of this, but it’s definitely worth mentioning in this thread. This is why to me personally, and some others ears that I trust, think it DOES sound more like a mark 3, given my experience with them. Doesn’t mean it’s true, sure, but that is definitely my opinion.

3. The fact that they never once used the amp straight in( I’m talking before it gets into the console) kinda is relevant to me. It would be one thing if the amp was established on its own on all these metal records, but it’s not, ever. So you take away Metallica, and you are left with dream theater: the only remotely heavy band that has used this amp “straight in”. The fact that flemming and rock had to slave it into other amps every single time, tells me something. Would it have sounded great on its own? Who knows? It probably would have, but it sure as hell wouldn’t have sounded like THAT.

There is no doubt the mark series amps are the closest amps to getting the classic Metallica tones of those records, totally agree with all of that. I’m simply saying, outside of nostalgia, these amps are not even close to being as tried and true and tested as people make them out to be for this style of music. Constantly all over the net you’ll hear “ OMGZ best metal amp everz!”. Yet when you ask them what iconic tones outside of Metallica who didn’t even come close to using the amp by itself were created with it, suddenly people are defensive and pissed off. Sorry if the truth hurts, but it’s reality. If you like the sound of them, there’s is absolutely nothing wrong with that! Seriously, as with anything, use what you want of course. But you simply can’t compare this amp to other amps that are staples in whatever genre of music said amp is supposively great for; there’s no denying why a plexi is famous, a twin reverb, a recto, a 5150, whatever. The list is long and distinguished why those amps are revered.
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I agree with a lot of what you are saying here. You can’t eq away certain characteristics of the amp. And that is exactly why I’m emphasizing that it was a C++ and not a stock run of the mill IIC+.
I’m certainly not an expert, but I’ve had four Mark III’s, four IIC+/++’s and a couple of Mark IV’s and to me it sounds much more like a IIC++.

Regarding power amps. MoP was just a IIC+(+) straight in with one Aphex in the loop. No other power amp there. The Strategy 400 came out in 1987 and I doubt Flemming or Bob had anything to do with the use of it while recording. It was already part of their rigs by then.

Also remember it was only in production for roughly a year before they moved on to the Mark III. If you were in a band and were getting a new amp, by mid ‘85 you could no longer get a IIC+. I bet there are tons more albums recorded with the Mark III because of the availability.

And I’m sure there are better amps for modern metal. That has nothing to do with whether TBA was IIC++ or III or not. Never heard anyone claim they are the greatest modern metal amp. People want them for their vintage qualities.
 
I listened to Dyers Eve right now and man it is the most coolest yet most overrated tone at the same time. Sounds so mean and aggressive yet sounds like it was recorded out of an american standard toilet. Justice has some guitar phase issues to my ears
 
PurityS.L.G said:
I listened to Dyers Eve right now and man it is the most coolest yet most overrated tone at the same time. Sounds so mean and aggressive yet sounds like it was recorded out of an american standard toilet. Justice has some guitar phase issues to my ears
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Agreed. I have mixed feelings about it now for similar reasons, but when I first heard it as a teenager (especially the isolated guitar track of it) it probably had the biggest impact to me of any guitar tone I'd heard. I was trying to get that tone for a while back then. First I had a mark v, wasn't doing it, then got a Mark III green stripe, close but not cigar, had 2 blue stripe coliseums, and finally a c+, although not 100% there on its own it still had the essence of it for me. I later ran my c+ hrg into the power amp of my Mark III++ no stripe coli and it was like that tone on steroids (very cartoonish)

I don't know about the black album and don't care (never liked it much), but for AJFA imo a c+ is a critical ingredient for that sound
 
at the end of the day, how close to metallica do you really want to sound though? its an expensive chase, and its never going to be exact for so many reasons.

however with that said, i have a mark IVa, and i sculpt my tone to what pleases my ears the most, which happens to sound about 90% close to the black album (go figure eh?), with my mids sculpting to sound like "me", not them. But i think most people that heard my tone would agree it sounds very metallica-y.

what they actually used is almost irrelevant since c+ through IV will get you 90% of the way there with out any outboard gear. save some money and just learn to play the songs perfectly, and you'll forget about the remaining 10%.
 
First off, the C+ is a rare amp. Not many made. How many Famous modern metal players even own one? Studios? I’m sure if they wanted to, they could buy one. But, it’s a COMPLETELY different tone than the most common recorded metal amp, 5150/5153s. So, if metal band A wanted to sound like metal band B, who uses 5150s metal band A is going to use 5150s. Since that is Sneaps fav amp to use, even if metal band C wanted to record with a C+ the producer may nix it. So I think there are many factors at play when it comes to judging why a C+ is only used to record the biggest metal band EVER; 3-4 albums. And not the 5150. One of the reasons the 5150 is used is they were cheap and plentiful; and once they became entrenched in the metal scene, why change? It was the go to metal amp. Why change a good thing?

But, if you want to compare what you hear with a 5150 vs a C+ in the room, the C+ crushes it in the categories I value in an amp. Clarity? Haha not even close. Noise? Again, not even close. Tone? Subjective of course. Feel? C+ is far more touch sensitive. I’ve played many 5150s on back lines years ago and the only way to run them was LOUD. Fizzy and smeared at lower volumes; above 5 they were much better but that’s super loud. To each their own but I certainly don’t rate an amp based on who and how many times it’s been used on a record. If I did, my 2 vintage Marshalls shit all over any other amp ever. Haha
 
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