The future of rock guitar rigs...

[Little B]

Hell there is a huge differance between 2x12 n 4x12. I just cannot go small. It's about feel,head room, tone,moving air n yea Look !

...this...you just cant get that with modelers and to an extent,with your in ears-(and yes,by deault,i have to use ears-but I always have to have one out-that's for another thread though)...given the right gig,ample room,and a good paying gig w/ some load in help,I always end up with at least 2 4x12 cabs,sometimes 4..I seem to come from the other end of the spectrum: Ive used combos for 20 years,tons of modelers over the last 10 years, and since I went with 100 watt heads or my rack,Ive gotten nothing but "hey man,your tone is killer" at gigs now..same soundman.I'll deal with an extra 25-30 minutes to load in a 4x12 cab.

 

[Racerxrated]

One guy locally has an Axe. Played it, just not real enough for me. Everyone else plays amps.....I'll keep lugging my cabs around and feeling the air move next to me. If the cost comes down and they sound more real i'd consider it. Fob sounds great but its gotta sound great next to me.

 

[mentoneman]

i've been on a mission for the last few months going to in ears, a speakerless system while retaining my tube amp tone, and integrating my rack gear into service as efficiently as possible.

it took months of experimentation but i'm really feeling good about the blend of my sound and the monitor mix in my ears.
here's what the rig looks like:

and the connections in the back of the rack:

now compared to the axe fx ultra rig i used to have, my current rig is a giant pain in the butt to set up!

consider just the rack connectivity and cables and weight; then the pedals and loops that control them. then the amp and attenuation and cabs. all of that exists virtually within the fractal's two spaces.

setup time now is 15-25 minutes if i'm lucky. fractal time was 5 minutes.

i have a rockcrusher set to load to safely balance my amp output and a rocktron juice extractor on the second speaker out to split the line out if the amp to feed my fx and mixer with a dry signal, and for it's parametric eq and post amp hush.

it has cab simulation but i prefer and use the cab sim in my rocktron rack interface instead, which serves as my fx mixer and where i blend the monitor mix from the band with my post cab sim rack sound for my in ears. it also sends balanced XLR DIs to the house.

at the end of the day, the sound and the feel of this rig is superior to my ultra.

the side effects of my experiments are another band member converted to in ears and i began using this as a b-rig

jam up pro on my ipad, first into a fender combo just like i used to run when i had a POD V2 bean controlled via midi with my dmc ground control, and last time i played with no amp at all--totally DI!

interestingly enough the band loves the idea and thinks i am so high tech gigging with an ipad and they said the sound was cool, and i must admit it was sketchy for an old tube head like myself but i dig experimenting with technology.

it doesn't sound as good to me as the main rig or my memory of the ultra, more like my old POD days, but i couldn't imagine a smaller and more cutting edge DI rig.

 

[mentoneman]

and here is a demo tom quayle did of the bias/jam up pro apps i bought for $10 bucks at Christmas and run on my ipad 4.


https://youtu.be/C5xxn3wX8Bs

 

[mentoneman]

last night i used the ipad/jam up live, running steeo mino out to 1/4" y cable to connect to 2 DI boxes, sending XLR to house and 1/4" throughs to a small mackie mixer for me where i mixed a monitor feed from FOH to blend in to my iems

i thought i'd have more control than last time but honestly it sucked!
noisy, had to gate so hard there was no way i could use my volume knob like normal for dynamics.
and except for my fender patch the vox and marshall patches are so stereo wide that it became very
difficult to mix for the mono house.

i might have to go back to using it as a mono device only.

 

[tubortski]

Right on, Cujo! Gotta have that vibe going.

 

[SFW]

I've been playing a 50 or 100 watt half stack live for the past twenty years, and will continue to do so until I physically can't. While modelers have come a long way, every guitarist I've seen using one gets burried in the mix. Now I know that's mostly eq, but it's a trend that has turned me off from that direction. A good master volume or an attenuator and there ya go. I don't see tube amps going anywhere any time soon.

 

[rsm]

I dunno, I think guitar centric music will decline. For millennials, there are still many that dig guitar music but more seem to be into non-guitar centric music. rock music took over from the big band era, when did guitar / rock start, the 1950s? If you're a millennial, that is your grandparents or even great-grandparents era music, and guitar is/was their instrument. At best, it is/was your parents' music.

That said, I saw a teen girl with a Beatles shirt at a mall recently and had to ask about it. I was surprised that she knew about the music and really was into it! So what do I know, lol.

I still have tube amps, but I've been using modelers primarily for the last several years. Most of the bands I see these days around here are using combos (saw band last night, guitar player was using Fender Deville 410 with a few pedals, and bass player had a boutique combo with what looked to be an array of 8" speakers, maybe 9 or 12 of them?)

I still think the glory days of guitar centric music are history, and it is slowly dying out...

 

[stephen sawall]

Rock is already dead..... Look at where the money is hip hop & country ......country is the only music with a future that has a lot of guitar still. There is many younger people into classic bands like the Beatles & Led..... Music from 40/50 years ago....Not the decades between.
I have a feeling music is going to be more about creativity..... Not learning some instrument that takes years to learn. Who would waste their time with that nonsense ?

 

[tubortski]

Glancing over Billboard Hot 100 and am not seeing any guitar driven music... a bit "country" Brad Paisley, Keith Urban, Kenny Chesney.

Eric Church... the guy that ripped off a Slayer riff big time?

Kanye West featuring Paul McCartney ... what???

I could see more creative driven music but, it's gotta have a hook, ya know, reel em in. Or a great beat, or video

 

[Stone Heavy Sound]

In speaking of the future I think heads are going to get more advanced and remain popular. Yes, it's shocking how much more popular good gear is with the home players, but that's mostly because "local bands" generally aren't very good and guys who play at home are more interested in playing than trying to get notoriety and as such care about their tone more. My band runs two guitars through a Custom Audio rack and my Soldano rack. I get complimented at every show I play on my tone, usually from the sound guy and other guitar players. I also lug around a Splawn Nitro for my "small" setup (and backup) with a pedal board as stages keep shrinking along with the audiences for hard rock. The Nitro blows everyone's face off and usually nobody knows the brand and wants to learn about it; again usually other guitar players that either live in remote places where they can't try stuff or don't invest the time to learn about what's out there. The band we just did 20 shows with had a Bogner and a Diamond head, and the band before that rocked PRS and Mesa heads. The local openers that are good for clearing the room at every show usually are the ones with the line 6 and crate amps. I see working bands using good heads, although 2x12's are getting more common. Also, working bands serious about reliability, and are scared of a electronic rig not powering up. I use a lexicon G2 in my rack, and you bet your ass the other bands had a field day making fun of me when it didn't boot up one night at soundcheck (it was 0 degrees in Michigan and the battery terminal solder cracked, I carry backups for everything in my rig so I got the last laugh). Until there's a reason to think that somehow modeling amps will get "better" it's not a safe assumption. The Kemper or AxeFX are great for playing at home and having something that feels and sounds like a great amp without having volume issues. But once you try to crank that sound it just doesn't move the speakers in the same way and sounds two dimensional. In looking at the future we have to look around present... how many new tube head companies in the last 10 years? How many new modeling amp companies?

 

[stephen sawall]

Glancing over Billboard Hot 100 and am not seeing any guitar driven music... a bit "country" Brad Paisley, Keith Urban, Kenny Chesney.

Eric Church... the guy that ripped off a Slayer riff big time?

Kanye West featuring Paul McCartney ... what???

I could see more creative driven music but, it's gotta have a hook, ya know, reel em in. Or a great beat, or video

That stuff about Paul & Kanye is amusing.
I completely agree a hook is completely needed for most music.... Regardless of the style.

Anyone that is serious at all about music should really look at what is going on with music today..... And maybe evaluate how & where they fit in. There is always room for various styles...... But if you still play rock as your main style you are about as relevant as big band jazz or classical music in the current market.

 

[esizer]

I love my my tube amps and will never give them up...however, I do plan on getting a Kemper for recording purposes. I recently played the Mrak 25 mini stack at a gig with a small stage and I didn't feel like I was missing anything or feeling strained running in contrast to an EVH 5153 50 watter. For about 90% of the shows before that, it was a 4x12 and 100 watt tube head. Even in the venues that have a giant stage and have a capacity over a thousand, the sound guys have always neutered me on stage volume. With my hunnert watt heads and 4x12's I don't think I've ever been "allowed" to put my master volume north of 9 o clock. Even my 25 watt head was asked to back off the volume at 10 o clock or so (albeit, small stage/sound system). If possible, I will always take the most amp I can...however, I plan on getting a vertical 2x12 to run under the Mark V for a majority of our shows. I much prefer a 4x12 but I'd rather have more stage area and less shit to carry/haul/load in/load out. I will certainly bring the 4x12 to shows where they can be aptly used but otherwise the smaller footprint of a vertical 2x12 makes a lot more sense.

I feel like I got away from the topic a little. I don't think tube amps on the whole are a dying breed but I think it will be a lot more common for more and more people to start using more "unconventional" smaller wattage amps, modelers, and the like. If a band/player has the means and venue space then nothing sounds better than a cranked big bottle tube amp. Even with a good master volume, higher wattage tube amps are meant to be played loud. Sure you can dial em back a bit...but honestly, I play my amps louder at home than most venues prefer. Y'all can save the "I tour all over" mentality where it is applicable as I think it is safe to say a good majority of us (read: Rig Talk) range from hobbyists to someone who plays small to medium level shows. On the international to national touring level, I'd say that 100 watt heads and 4x12s are pretty common fare. Once you get down to the regional and local scenes, I think there is a lot more variability in what people use and more importantly what they can afford/justify spending.

At the end of the day, it comes down to the love of the music. Use whatever you want, if you're leaving it all out on the stage...no one is going to give a shit about the rest.

 

[Shark Diver]

So much of this depends on what, and where you are playing. Yes, I have played many places where you can't bring an amp on stage. Big rooms. It is just a fact. But yeah, they don't have any Metal bands going thru there.

Eventually the modeling chip will be in your guitar, and the guitar most likely won't have conventional pickups.

As far as pushing air - your cab has 4 speakers - use 4 wedges, air gets pushed.

I would think in the next 20 years it will be a 50/50 amp/modeler ratio. And analog will just decline from there. DJs fill stadiums now-a-days. I don't understand it, but nobody cares if I do. Guitar based music isn't the only thing on the block anymore.

Amps will evolve enough to stay relevant for a while. Lighter power transformers, modeling integrated in with tubes, etc.

$ will drive most of the decline of amps. Cost of recording (different heads, different mics, sound rooms, etc.), cost of maintenance and transporting of big rigs, cost of parts, techs, blah, blah, blah, will mean corporate will start to move away from them.

It may seem strange to think of no amps on stage, but it is already happening. It seems strange to me that I use to lug around 8 milk crates of LPs and CDs around to DJ and it all fits on an iPod now, that fits in my pocket. Or that I don't have a home phone, or phone book, as most people don't anymore. I use to have a glove box full of maps. TV stopped at midnight. Again, blah, blah, blah.

Change will happen. Wait until the government outlaws tubes - change will happen sooner than we think

 

[Alex_S]

I think the success of the modelers (or alternatives) is very much dependent on general attitude of guitarists. The very most guitar players (me included) are very conservative regarding their music and sound taste. Our ideals are some old recordings done with tube heads. Most of us try to emulate these sounds. That is why modelers have many Plexi, Vox etc. models but little to no new sound generators. As long as modelers try to copy other things, they have a natural disadvantage. In the very best case they could be as good as the original, but every deviation will be seen as a negative. Therefore I think as long as guitar players, music industry and the audience thinks about Beatles, Hendrix, VH,... whatever tube amps will stay.

But possibly we will see some completely new sounds coming from modelers generated by electric guitars. In general they have a much better base to create other sounds than pedal/amp-builders that modify things by analog circuits. And a new "Jimi Hendrix/Eddy" doing radical new things/sounds with a modeler might conquer the masses and generate followers. We will see. So wake up modeler programmers. The future of the electric guitar may depend on you...

(In the mean time, I LOVE my 100 Watt tube heads ;-)

 

[Shask]

... how many new tube head companies in the last 10 years? How many new modeling amp companies?

I dont really think that is a good comparison. Anyone who can solder together some resistors can build an amp, and eventually make a company out of it. A modeling device takes some serious mathematics and programming skills. Very few people have the skills to make a modeler. There will naturally be less modeling companies.

 

[DannyM]

I thought about this at a stop light.

I don't see imitation crab meat (modelers/profilers) ever permanently replacing real crab meat (Marhsall/Fender/Mesa/Bogner).
Most people (audience/fans) could care less about the type of crab meat a chef (band/guitarist) puts in their product as long as it tastes (sounds) good to them.

Many chefs (guitarist) have a palate (ears and fingers that can hear/feel the difference) which can discern the nuances, textures, complexities, and differences between the imitation crab meat and the real crab meat.
Sure any chef can cook up a meal with imitation crab meat to satisfy most people, but the inspiration, the joy, the satisfaction for the chef will not be 100% fulfilled eating and tasting a meal he's prepared unless it has real crab meat.
He will say that he "almost cant tell the difference"...but he can.

Now a chef may not want to lug around his entire kitchen and use his good stuff (real crab meat aka tube amps) to go cook for a bar full of drunks who could care less who the chef(s) are that night as they are mainly there for the beer and the b!tches....
but rest assured, a master chef's palate will be able to tell that his product that night was not the best it could have been.

As a chef I prefer to use real crab meat...period. Why? Because I can still tell the difference...mainly in feel but also somewhat in the sound.

As a consumer? I recently saw Exodus and you could see their toasters filled with imitation crab meat shining thru out the set.
I didnt care...it tasted great! Some nights Chef Boy Ardee (modelers/profilers) is good enough.

Its ok if you didnt get that....my wife didnt get it either...LOL.

 

[zuel69]

I love your crab meat analogy.

I thought about this at a stop light.

I don't see imitation crab meat (modelers/profilers) ever permanently replacing real crab meat (Marhsall/Fender/Mesa/Bogner).
Most people (audience/fans) could care less about the type of crab meat a chef (band/guitarist) puts in their product as long as it tastes (sounds) good to them.

Many chefs (guitarist) have a palate (ears and fingers that can hear/feel the difference) which can discern the nuances, textures, complexities, and differences between the imitation crab meat and the real crab meat.
Sure any chef can cook up a meal with imitation crab meat to satisfy most people, but the inspiration, the joy, the satisfaction for the chef will not be 100% fulfilled eating and tasting a meal he's prepared unless it has real crab meat.
He will say that he "almost cant tell the difference"...but he can.

Now a chef may not want to lug around his entire kitchen and use his good stuff (real crab meat aka tube amps) to go cook for a bar full of drunks who could care less who the chef(s) are that night as they are mainly there for the beer and the b!tches....
but rest assured, a master chef's palate will be able to tell that his product that night was not the best it could have been.

As a chef I prefer to use real crab meat...period. Why? Because I can still tell the difference...mainly in feel but also somewhat in the sound.

As a consumer? I recently saw Exodus and you could see their toasters filled with imitation crab meat shining thru out the set.
I didnt care...it tasted great! Some nights Chef Boy Ardee (modelers/profilers) is good enough.

Its ok if you didnt get that....my wife didnt get it either...LOL.

 

[PBGas]

Anyone that is serious at all about music should really look at what is going on with music today..... And maybe evaluate how & where they fit in. There is always room for various styles...... But if you still play rock as your main style you are about as relevant as big band jazz or classical music in the current market.

Heard that before. The cycle will change again and again to different popular styles. Old will become new and fresh and new will become outdated again.

The same with gear as well. Look at how much gear many of us have changed over the last 5 years. I've been ridiculous.

 

[lester]

The problem with the Axe for me is it seems to kind of shave off the corners, sand 'em down. It seems to lack aggression or some kind of wildness and I believe that it's a conscious effort by Fractal to do this, to be more refined, quieter, deeper adjustability..."better" than tube amps.

So tubes for me, aren't going anywhere soon...well, at least for the next couple firmware updates anyway.

But does any of that matter to 90% of the listening public? Nope.

So yeah, convenience, it's the future for some, probably most.