Van Halen 1 and 2 gear and racks in HD

[harddriver]

I find Jose's fully modded amps when using the extra gain stage(4th preamp tube) to have more gain than what I hear in VH1 tone. I haven't heard a Jose that has all of the attributes of a 68 plexi and sounds like Jim Gaustad's Friedman/Suhr Ed spec 68, it's almost too easy to get too much gain for a correct VH1 tone. The heavily variaced 68 plexi with a 8.5-9K PAF just has what I hear in VH1 tone recorded and live. In the end it is going to be personal preference really.

Here's a 71 Jose 3into 1 mod, I know he isn't playing VH the 68 plexi just has the it factor. The Jose to me sounds more Joe Holmes.

Here's a Cameron Atomica Jose, it's fairly gained out when compared to the 68 plexi

 

[Amp_chaser]

Are we seriously going to pretend to Eddie was the same person he was in the 2010s as he was in his youth?

His playing definitely changed since the 90s. You can hear it in the actual playing. Starting around the FUCK album progressing onwards. He played a lot lighter by the end of it. In many ways, he sounded more consistent.

Then the 2000s rolled by and his playing got worse.

One thing is for sure no one can make a soldano sound like a plexi and no one can make those evh amps sound like a plexi.

 

[Amp_chaser]

I find Jose's fully modded amps when using the extra gain stage(4th preamp tube) to have more gain than what I hear in VH1 tone. I haven't heard a Jose that has all of the attributes of a 68 plexi and sounds like Jim Gaustad's Friedman/Suhr Ed spec 68, it's almost too easy to get too much gain for a correct VH1 tone. The heavily variaced 68 plexi with a 8.5-9K PAF just has what I hear in VH1 tone recorded and live. In the end it is going to be personal preference really.

Here's a 71 Jose 3into 1 mod, I know he isn't playing VH the 68 plexi just has the it factor. The Jose to me sounds more Joe Holmes.

Here's a Cameron Atomica Jose, it's fairly gained out when compared to the 68 plexi

Yes you’re right but where it could be interesting is that Jose could have done it without an extra tube and limit the extra gain. A simple way to do that would be to disconnect the channel 2 820r 250uf and connect it on a tag strip to a 2k7 .68. He would then just add the volume for it in the back. A lot of things could have been done even just a pair of transistors on a master volume would have a lot impact. We will just never now. A mod doesn’t always necessitate a full change of the circuit. Small mods can have huge impacts on tone examples : bright caps or even the fizz cap.

 

[BlueParfait]

One thing is for sure no one can make a soldano sound like a plexi and no one can make those evh amps sound like a plexi.

Yes, but no one sane is going to worry about their Plexi not having exact same tranny wind as Ed, the specific caps at the exact tolerances, what exact minor mods there were that's supposedly later removed blah blah blah. Like, if you're going to be that anal, I would suggest trialing hundreds of speakers because each other speaker sounds different, more than two specimens of the same amp model.
I guarantee you you can go out there and buy a 1959HW, play it through a good approximation of a vintage Marshall 4x12, record it, do some stuff in post and you'd be 95% there. With a variac set correctly, I'd say 99% assuming the player got the chops.

Case in point, he still sounded like himself here. And this is (obviously) after after Fair Warning, after the synths, after 1984

 

[harddriver]

Yes you’re right but where it could be interesting is that Jose could have done it without an extra tube and limit the extra gain. A simple way to do that would be to disconnect the channel 2 820r 250uf and connect it on a tag strip to a 2k7 .68. He would then just add the volume for it in the back. A lot of things could have been done even just a pair of transistors on a master volume would have a lot impact. We will just never now. A mod doesn’t always necessitate a full change of the circuit. Small mods can have huge impacts on tone examples : bright caps or even the fizz cap.

After all the investigations that I have done I find the application of Occam's Razor is the most logical.....I have not heard a single Jose mod that sounds as correct in almost every way as the 68 plexi's whether they be Suhr Friedman or Gaustad's homebrew Metro 68, all the clips back that up, Yes the 330uf cap can be considered a mod but it doesn't add that much gain and an 820/.68uf on V2A sounds equally as good and less wooly IMHO. There just is a certain sound to a two gain stage plexi versus a 3 gain stage cascade(JCM800) or even just adding a gain stage in front of a standard plexi circuit changes things.

If a stock circuit gets the tone and gain they get the tone gain. My Ed spec 68 that I built and play and it sounds like Gaustad's amp and the Suhr clips and I have no desire to add any more gain to it in any way. The EP3 echoplexes and ocassional MXR 6band will give you that I'm the One tone and extra gain bump if needed or desired other than that the Gaustad video shows the gain that two gain stages can get.

Here's a bone stock 69 NOS components kit amp Superlead that I built, amp is running on 120VAC wall voltage no Variac.


Here are the specs: 1969 Marshall Superlead 100 watt Replica amp, NOS Iskras, NOS Mustard caps, Metro 1998C Dagnall clone OPT, Metro Dagnall clone choke, Classictone 40-18053, EH6CA7's, V1 Tung Sol, V2 Ruby HGAC5, V3 NOS SylvaniaTHD hotplate set to -4Db NO variacing the amp had a PEC dual 250K pot Lar/Mar PPIMV, the amp is stock two gain stages running V1A 820/250ufuf V1B 820/.68uf V2A 820/.68uf , 47K NFB on the speaker jacks and an NOS 5000pf Mallory bright cap on the bright channel and I'm running a modern TUng Sol in V1, Chines 9th gen in V2 and Sylvania 12ax7 in V3 with EH 6CA7's. I'm running a Clinch EP-PRE into a Boss EQ cutting the lows with barely 5-6DB mids boost and cutting some highs with a Seymour Duncan 78 Model. In my 68 Ed spec that I also built I run all NOS Sylvania 12ax7's and NOS Sylvania 6ca7's but the EH 6ca7's hold their own.

 

[harddriver]

Yes, but no one sane is going to worry about their Plexi not having exact same tranny wind as Ed, the specific caps at the exact tolerances, what exact minor mods there were that's supposedly later removed blah blah blah. Like, if you're going to be that anal, I would suggest trialing hundreds of speakers because each other speaker sounds different, more than two specimens of the same amp model.
I guarantee you you can go out there and buy a 1959HW, play it through a good approximation of a vintage Marshall 4x12, record it, do some stuff in post and you'd be 95% there. With a variac set correctly, I'd say 99% assuming the player got the chops.

Case in point, he still sounded like himself here. And this is (obviously) after after Fair Warning, after the synths, after 1984

Ed was still using Marshall Superleads and 12301 in 1986.

 

[BlueParfait]

Ed was still using Marshall Superleads and 12301 in 1986.

Yes?
I thought I kind of made clear you were going to get this with just about any good Plexi (or even a JCM really)

 

[harddriver]

Yes you’re right but where it could be interesting is that Jose could have done it without an extra tube and limit the extra gain. A simple way to do that would be to disconnect the channel 2 820r 250uf and connect it on a tag strip to a 2k7 .68. He would then just add the volume for it in the back. A lot of things could have been done even just a pair of transistors on a master volume would have a lot impact. We will just never now. A mod doesn’t always necessitate a full change of the circuit. Small mods can have huge impacts on tone examples : bright caps or even the fizz cap.

You may enjoy this video or you may have already seen it.

 

[Lightning]

Here’s my Rockstah mod 5 amp https://www.soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=11862749 I found this clip that Mark A sent me before he sent the amp to me

 

[RaceU4her]

What if people do ALL of this work only to find out tone is in the fingers? Or that for a few bucks and hours of time saved they can use the isolated tracks and get the exact tone from an axe fx? The world needs answers

I never see much talk of what mics, which like everything else can vary from one to another.. what console, pultecs, reverbs and whatever other outboard gear that changes things, the mixing, the mastering.. and oh yeah, eddies fingers. And then like I asked, what exactly are you gonna do even if one did nail it 100%? Move your rig into the next room and everything is different again

 

[BlueParfait]

I never see much talk of what mics, which like everything else can vary from one to another.. what console, pultecs, reverbs and whatever other outboard gear that changes things, the mixing, the mastering.. and oh yeah, eddies fingers. And then like I asked, what exactly are you gonna do even if one did nail it 100%? Move your rig into the next room and everything is different again

Don't give them ideas

Soon they're gonna try to figure out how long his cables were

 

[RaceU4her]

Don't give them ideas

Soon they're gonna try to figure out how long his cables were

well think of the mic cables alone.. i would assume they were in a live room with some kind of snake going through the walls to the control room, which they would have to hook up a whole other set of xlr cables into the board, we are talking a lot of footage with the snake in between, has anyone ever thought maybe its that snake that could have been the key?? i mean if we are gonna do this shit, lets do it right

 

[Amp_chaser]

Yes, but no one sane is going to worry about their Plexi not having exact same tranny wind as Ed, the specific caps at the exact tolerances, what exact minor mods there were that's supposedly later removed blah blah blah. Like, if you're going to be that anal, I would suggest trialing hundreds of speakers because each other speaker sounds different, more than two specimens of the same amp model.
I guarantee you you can go out there and buy a 1959HW, play it through a good approximation of a vintage Marshall 4x12, record it, do some stuff in post and you'd be 95% there. With a variac set correctly, I'd say 99% assuming the player got the chops.

Case in point, he still sounded like himself here. And this is (obviously) after after Fair Warning, after the synths, after 1984

Yes that’s true but eddies amp sounded different for vh1 vh2 and then tone changed again and staid almost the same. Ossie ashen which is one of the nerdiest brown sound chaser also says the amp has been rebuilt a lot of times a lot of modifications have been done then when the techs we know got it the amp was already a mess.

After all the investigations that I have done I find the application of Occam's Razor is the most logical.....I have not heard a single Jose mod that sounds as correct in almost every way as the 68 plexi's whether they be Suhr Friedman or Gaustad's homebrew Metro 68, all the clips back that up, Yes the 330uf cap can be considered a mod but it doesn't add that much gain and an 820/.68uf on V2A sounds equally as good and less wooly IMHO. There just is a certain sound to a two gain stage plexi versus a 3 gain stage cascade(JCM800) or even just adding a gain stage in front of a standard plexi circuit changes things.

If a stock circuit gets the tone and gain they get the tone gain. My Ed spec 68 that I built and play and it sounds like Gaustad's amp and the Suhr clips and I have no desire to add any more gain to it in any way. The EP3 echoplexes and ocassional MXR 6band will give you that I'm the One tone and extra gain bump if needed or desired other than that the Gaustad video shows the gain that two gain stages can get.

Here's a bone stock 69 NOS components kit amp Superlead that I built, amp is running on 120VAC wall voltage no Variac.


Here are the specs: 1969 Marshall Superlead 100 watt Replica amp, NOS Iskras, NOS Mustard caps, Metro 1998C Dagnall clone OPT, Metro Dagnall clone choke, Classictone 40-18053, EH6CA7's, V1 Tung Sol, V2 Ruby HGAC5, V3 NOS SylvaniaTHD hotplate set to -4Db NO variacing the amp had a PEC dual 250K pot Lar/Mar PPIMV, the amp is stock two gain stages running V1A 820/250ufuf V1B 820/.68uf V2A 820/.68uf , 47K NFB on the speaker jacks and an NOS 5000pf Mallory bright cap on the bright channel and I'm running a modern TUng Sol in V1, Chines 9th gen in V2 and Sylvania 12ax7 in V3 with EH 6CA7's. I'm running a Clinch EP-PRE into a Boss EQ cutting the lows with barely 5-6DB mids boost and cutting some highs with a Seymour Duncan 78 Model. In my 68 Ed spec that I also built I run all NOS Sylvania 12ax7's and NOS Sylvania 6ca7's but the EH 6ca7's hold their own.

I agree that a super lead with 12000 specs will get you there closely. Eddie didn’t use Sylvanias during vh1 but rft era tubes.

However there is an issue I tested with my plexis. You can’t get the sustain of rwtd or the crazy sustain he shows in some live shows without a boost in the signal like the pultec meq 5 or the Schaffer Vega with a stock 12000 series and apparently from the infos gathered until now he didn’t used them live on vh1 just look at the Japanese pics.

Come on guys Neil Zlozlower followed Eddie almost all his life. He made his book seriously and Eddie never came to say that Jose said bullshit in this interview. It comes from a book written by someone which knew Eddie followed him all his life and made his job seriously. This isn’t a rumor like the ones people were saying in the past. There is strong credit for it.

I’m just saying that Jose’s testimony is a thing to take in consideration. He said that it took many years to build eddie’s tone and that it wasn’t a single stock super lead alone. He said we wanted to retain the plexi core sound but make it that the listeners could feel it.

I bet that Jose had a lot of mods he just gave most people an alternative of them. The extra gain stage was probably one of those multiple mods.

Dave Friedman and Ohsie Ahsen both believe that something very different and weird was probably going on for VH1 they even discussed it recently on tone talk. Even the YouTuber psionic audio commented in YouTube whatever was there was removed a long time ago. Dave and ossie said it’s impossible for a stock plexi to have this broken sound with this amount of gain and sustain with the equipment he was using at the time. People often said that the live early days of Van Halen sounded even better than the recorded version and George lynch is a testimony of it. There are multiple times where he says that many times they sounded better even live. So I doubt the studio magic was the cause of the tone it was more a polish added in the end. Of course it made the sound we all know. If you listen to Van Halen 0 you can hear an amp that has this broken sound but that isn’t complete yet. It hasn’t yet the levels of gain we know. In Van Halen 0 the sound is closer to a stock plexi. This is probably the stock 12301 in 1976 without the definitive mods that were in vh1. You can hear it still sounds amazing because Eddie plays it but there is way less gain and sustain.

 

[Ben Waylin]

Come on guys Neil Zlozlower followed Eddie almost all his life. He made his book seriously and Eddie never came to say that Jose said bullshit in this interview.

 

[PiggySmallz]

I never see much talk of what mics, which like everything else can vary from one to another.. what console, pultecs, reverbs and whatever other outboard gear that changes things, the mixing, the mastering.. and oh yeah, eddies fingers. And then like I asked, what exactly are you gonna do even if one did nail it 100%? Move your rig into the next room and everything is different again

I've never gotten into a place where I want to replicate someone's tone exactly? Sure, I'd use it as a baseline because it sounds good to me but there's too many variables. To your point, what happens when I achieve it? Just play some covers? I feel like it wastes more time that I could be using to actually play my guitars and amps.

I know some people find it fun to chase a tone. It's just a waste of time for me. Get me 80% there and I'll shape my own town from that point. Too many variables in a mix, live setting, bedroom with improper room treatment. Just take the isolated studio track and feed it to an axe fx if you want identical.

To your other point, no need to even change rooms. Come back a few hours later when the same outlet is pushing 123 volts instead of 119 volts and your tone is gone lol

 

[RaceU4her]

I've never gotten into a place where I want to replicate someone's tone exactly? Sure, I'd use it as a baseline because it sounds good to me but there's too many variables. To your point, what happens when I achieve it? Just play some covers? I feel like it wastes more time that I could be using to actually play my guitars and amps.

I know some people find it fun to chase a tone. It's just a waste of time for me. Get me 80% there and I'll shape my own town from that point. Too many variables in a mix, live setting, bedroom with improper room treatment. Just take the isolated studio track and feed it to an axe fx if you want identical.

To your other point, no need to even change rooms. Come back a few hours later when the same outlet is pushing 123 volts instead of 119 volts and your tone is gone lol

ive done a bunch of clips trying to approximate tones of some of the bands i have similar gear too, its a fun way to experiment and learn recording, but ill spend maybe an hour and a half total and im over it, the quests i see so many dudes on chasing eddies tone is wild to me.

 

[Amp_chaser]

I’d buy this shit even the logo is a masterpiece !

 

[mentoneman]

Yes that’s true but eddies amp sounded different for vh1 vh2 and then tone changed again and staid almost the same. Ossie ashen which is one of the nerdiest brown sound chaser also says the amp has been rebuilt a lot of times a lot of modifications have been done then when the techs we know got it the amp was already a mess.


I agree that a super lead with 12000 specs will get you there closely. Eddie didn’t use Sylvanias during vh1 but rft era tubes.

However there is an issue I tested with my plexis. You can’t get the sustain of rwtd or the crazy sustain he shows in some live shows without a boost in the signal like the pultec meq 5 or the Schaffer Vega with a stock 12000 series and apparently from the infos gathered until now he didn’t used them live on vh1 just look at the Japanese pics.

Come on guys Neil Zlozlower followed Eddie almost all his life. He made his book seriously and Eddie never came to say that Jose said bullshit in this interview. It comes from a book written by someone which knew Eddie followed him all his life and made his job seriously. This isn’t a rumor like the ones people were saying in the past. There is strong credit for it.

I’m just saying that Jose’s testimony is a thing to take in consideration. He said that it took many years to build eddie’s tone and that it wasn’t a single stock super lead alone. He said we wanted to retain the plexi core sound but make it that the listeners could feel it.

I bet that Jose had a lot of mods he just gave most people an alternative of them. The extra gain stage was probably one of those multiple mods.

Dave Friedman and Ohsie Ahsen both believe that something very different and weird was probably going on for VH1 they even discussed it recently on tone talk. Even the YouTuber psionic audio commented in YouTube whatever was there was removed a long time ago. Dave and ossie said it’s impossible for a stock plexi to have this broken sound with this amount of gain and sustain with the equipment he was using at the time. People often said that the live early days of Van Halen sounded even better than the recorded version and George lynch is a testimony of it. There are multiple times where he says that many times they sounded better even live. So I doubt the studio magic was the cause of the tone it was more a polish added in the end. Of course it made the sound we all know. If you listen to Van Halen 0 you can hear an amp that has this broken sound but that isn’t complete yet. It hasn’t yet the levels of gain we know. In Van Halen 0 the sound is closer to a stock plexi. This is probably the stock 12301 in 1976 without the definitive mods that were in vh1. You can hear it still sounds amazing because Eddie plays it but there is way less gain and sustain.

the live at pasadena civic recording had a much more developed vh tone

i love this clip due to the clear capture of his raw overdrive level minus the band or sunset sound reverb and insight into his delay setting

 

[harddriver]

However there is an issue I tested with my plexis. You can’t get the sustain of rwtd or the crazy sustain he shows in some live shows without a boost in the signal like the pultec meq 5 or the Schaffer Vega with a stock 12000 series and apparently from the infos gathered until now he didn’t used them live on vh1 just look at the Japanese pics.



Dave Friedman and Ohsie Ahsen both believe that something very different and weird was probably going on for VH1 they even discussed it recently on tone talk. Even the YouTuber psionic audio commented in YouTube whatever was there was removed a long time ago. Dave and ossie said it’s impossible for a stock plexi to have this broken sound with this amount of gain and sustain with the equipment he was using at the time. People often said that the live early days of Van Halen sounded even better than the recorded version and George lynch is a testimony of it. There are multiple times where he says that many times they sounded better even live. So I doubt the studio magic was the cause of the tone it was more a polish added in the end. Of course it made the sound we all know. If you listen to Van Halen 0 you can hear an amp that has this broken sound but that isn’t complete yet. It hasn’t yet the levels of gain we know. In Van Halen 0 the sound is closer to a stock plexi. This is probably the stock 12301 in 1976 without the definitive mods that were in vh1. You can hear it still sounds amazing because Eddie plays it but there is way less gain and sustain.

The Zero demo was produced by Gene Simmons who flew the band out to record it, who knows what amps and equipment Ed had, it has been said it was Ace's Marshall's.

At this point since you won't acknowledge the gain a variaced plexi puts out proven by actual clips I think you are punking us to elicit a discussion which I am more than willing to oblige.

It's possible that Ed was not shown the variac/slaving trick yet in 1976 and he was bitching about how loud the plexi was and either Jose or someone else or Ed figured out turning the variac down lowered the volume levels and then he need to reamp them with slave amps. Alotof people including Mark Cameron say this load box was similar to the one Ed used.

You keep saying a 68 plexi can't produce that amount of gain and I have already posted numerous clips of them producing VH1 levels of gain without Ed playing them that sound just like the album and his live shows. The live shows from the 78 tour did not use the mic preamps or the Pultec EQs.
Gear used: EVH Stripped Series (Stock), MXR Phase90, Clinch FX EP-PRE, Suhr SL68 Variac-Mode (everything on 10), UA OX BOX.


Another clip from Gaustad
The amp is my '68 Marshall Superlead (all stock), every knob on 10 - Variac is running the amp at 85 volts. Its plugged into an old, "peeled" Marshall 4x12, loaded with 2 x JBL D120s and 2 x Celestion Greenbacks. Two mics (SM 57s), one on the JBL and one on the Celestion. The cabinet is isolated in my "iso booth" AKA bathroom shower stall, and covered with a moving blanket. On the front end of the amp, it's just an MXR Flanger, Phase 90 and original Maestro EP3 Echoplex. The eq on the pedal board is only used live with a wireless system. The guitar is my VH knockoff - Northern Ash body, maple neck, standard term, non-locking tuners, slightly overwound PAF (8.9K-ish) style pickup, with Alnico 2 magnet. The recording setup is Apple's Logic X using some Waves plug-ins (API 550 eq, LA2A compressor and 1176 compressor) Reverb is an IR of the Sunset Sound, studio 1 chamber.

Here's an in the room I phone clip of Gaustad so the UA's preamps and Pultec's and Sunset Sound settings are not in this clip, it's what's coming out of the cabinet and it's VH1 gain.

 

[311splawndude]

@Amp_chaser - I don't know where you came from but welcome to Rig-Talk

Cool thread/discussions