Van Halen Panama tone

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Racerxrated said:
Sounds good..but for true perfection you need to add the JBLs. Then you are set.
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I bought two original JBL D120F' s each were the rare 16ohm models and they were in excellent shape. I paired them up with two 90's English 6402 Kurt Mueller coned greenbacks and after much assessment I went in a different direction. Maybe for getting some of that bright ratty tone on the album or a collector aspect but I really don't feel they are essential to get a good VH1 Ed tone. After all my deep dives into Ed lore I have found that probably speakerwise the Pulsonic 0014 cone greenback, the 55Hz 25watt greenback and the 12H-30 55HZ Blackbacks will get you the most gratifying Ed tones.

I have tried every Pulsonic 0014 cone replica out there but since I have not played an actual Pulsonic coned greenback I had no way to compare contrast the attributes but I could never commit to saying these sounded like a Pulsonic coned Greenback as much as I wanted to like them.

The closest thing I have is an all original 1978 25 watt blackback cab that sounds ok for Ed but I think the 12H-30 55HZ blackbacks sound more Ed than those even. Every Ed head say that once they played an actual vintage 0014 coned greenback they mad all other speakers pale in comparison.
 
That's interesting. I always thought the 25w black backs were the EVH tone. I think he used both Pulsonic greens and black backs on different songs/ albums. Diver Down definitely sounds more like a black back cab.

In Pete Thorn's EVH deep dive video, he gets very close to Ed's tone. He used 25w black backs in that video. I'd love to hear them compared to the 30's. You may be very well right in your assessment.
 
Here's 25 watt blackbacks and two JBLD120F's LA sound and design David Phillips

Here's 75HZ 25 watt blackbacks you might enjoy this vid, He also mentions the 55HZ 30 watt blackbacks and my ears agree with David, YMMV.
 
harddriver said:
I bought two original JBL D120F' s each were the rare 16ohm models and they were in excellent shape. I paired them up with two 90's English 6402 Kurt Mueller coned greenbacks and after much assessment I went in a different direction. Maybe for getting some of that bright ratty tone on the album or a collector aspect but I really don't feel they are essential to get a good VH1 Ed tone. After all my deep dives into Ed lore I have found that probably speakerwise the Pulsonic 0014 cone greenback, the 55Hz 25watt greenback and the 12H-30 55HZ Blackbacks will get you the most gratifying Ed tones.

I have tried every Pulsonic 0014 cone replica out there but since I have not played an actual Pulsonic coned greenback I had no way to compare contrast the attributes but I could never commit to saying these sounded like a Pulsonic coned Greenback as much as I wanted to like them.

The closest thing I have is an all original 1978 25 watt blackback cab that sounds ok for Ed but I think the 12H-30 55HZ blackbacks sound more Ed than those even. Every Ed head say that once they played an actual vintage 0014 coned greenback they mad all other speakers pale in comparison.
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We’ll agree to disagree. Once I fired up that cab with the JBL/GB mix it was like a lightbulb turned on. There was that high end ‘sizzle’ on VHI. And this is with a 2203 and an 80s SD1. Look no further imo.
 
Racerxrated said:
We’ll agree to disagree. Once I fired up that cab with the JBL/GB mix it was like a lightbulb turned on. There was that high end ‘sizzle’ on VHI. And this is with a 2203 and an 80s SD1. Look no further imo.
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If we all heard things the same way what boring world we would be living in Racer. :yes: I'm not saying they aren't cool, or don;t supply the high end sizzle on VH1 but if I had experienced the same ahhah moment using the JBL's I would have definitely kept them as they tend to be rare as hensteeth.
 
The JBL’s are one of the secret ingredients that seems to be the most overlooked part. Some guys do find them too bright or ratty, but it’s also possible that ones Hardriver was using weren’t original cones or maybe were grey frame rather orange frame version. These details all matter. And the old pre-rola greenbacks have a unique really warm midrange that’s very different sounding to me than the non-pulsonic ones that came out after or any other speaker really. I really don’t think you can really nail that tone without an orange frame D120F with original 21023 cones combined with a pulsonic cone Greenback. I actually never honestly cared much for EVH’s tone or really was an EVH fan at all, but he does have a distinctive tone and those are imo some key components

Also those assymetrical humbuckers like that Luxxtone hot are imo another key part and also one part of EVH’s tone that I really didn’t like honestly. Those assymetrical humbuckers sound almost like a Strat bridge pickup to me. They’re articulate, but for my taste too hollow and lacking growl of other humbuckers, not a fan at all, but was a big part of EVH’s sound, so if you really wanna nail it then seems like you gotta have them. Every time I’ve tried various assymetrical humbuckers I get instantly reminded of EVH, but not in a good way for my ears/taste

I personally never try to nail anyone’s tone because there are always some aspects I don’t like about their tone that I feel could be better, like that hollow thing EVH had, so I prefer to just capture the parts I love, like his JBL/Greenback combo and Plexi, and get rid of the parts I don’t like in their tone, like that hollowness. We’ll likely never really nail it anyway, so why not get a sound that we like more anyway. I think a lot of guys here do that anyway without realizing it and is a good thing imo. More like our take on a sound
 
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Totally agree on the strat-sounding pickup tone on some recordings. I've been tempted to put an Alnico 2 mag in a 59/ Custom hybrid I've got and give it a try. One 4k coil and one 7K.
 
harddriver said:
If we all heard things the same way what boring world we would be living in Racer. :yes: I'm not saying they aren't cool, or don;t supply the high end sizzle on VH1 but if I had experienced the same ahhah moment using the JBL's I would have definitely kept them as they tend to be rare as hensteeth.
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I do think that in the recordings, for VHI the GB was 75% vs 25% for the JBL if that makes sense...the GB is what I hear the most with the upper mid sizzle being supplied by the JBL.
I thought that Ed used the older 20w Pulsonics? Blackbacks would have been pretty new on the market; I have a 76 cab with cream backs, not sure if the BBs came out in 76? Would Ed have had the cash then to buy new cabs? Or would he have used his tried and true older Marshall cabs from the 60s? At least for VHI. Maybe for 1984 he used BBs but I thought the first 2 albums were the late 60s 20w Pulsonics. I've found every BB cab I've tried (3) to be flat and sterile sounding compared to my 76 or 74 cream back cabs, and FAR behind the tone I get from my Pulsonic 72 cab.
 
As someone that’s not a student of EVH, perhaps you guys can educate me. Why is it believed that JBLs were used on the album (VH I)? There was only one cab with a pair of SM56s on it, so is it assumed that particular cab had a mix of GBs and JBLs with a mic on each?
 
Racerxrated said:
I do think that in the recordings, for VHI the GB was 75% vs 25% for the JBL if that makes sense...the GB is what I hear the most with the upper mid sizzle being supplied by the JBL.
I thought that Ed used the older 20w Pulsonics? Blackbacks would have been pretty new on the market; I have a 76 cab with cream backs, not sure if the BBs came out in 76? Would Ed have had the cash then to buy new cabs? Or would he have used his tried and true older Marshall cabs from the 60s? At least for VHI. Maybe for 1984 he used BBs but I thought the first 2 albums were the late 60s 20w Pulsonics. I've found every BB cab I've tried (3) to be flat and sterile sounding compared to my 76 or 74 cream back cabs, and FAR behind the tone I get from my Pulsonic 72 cab.
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I agree never tried any blackbacks in person, but they were always amongst my least favorites in any comparison clips I’d see from Johan Segeborn. I hear that sterile, flat quality. The pulsonic’s imo really are the best ones and have a warmth that the others don’t have

I’ll have to give another listen, but I remember hearing a pretty even blend of the JBL and Greenbacks. Besides the sizzle they also have deeper, more extended lows than Celestions. When I had my orange frame D120F’s on top and GB 20’s on bottom (new heritage versions, not pre-Rola, but still imo sounds great), the D120F’s really dominated and were heard much more. When the GB’s were on top it was very well balanced and I actually preferred that sound, but was longer EVH-ish. I also much prefer 20 to 25 watt greenbacks
 
NewWorldMan said:
As someone that’s not a student of EVH, perhaps you guys can educate me. Why is it believed that JBLs were used on the album (VH I)? There was only one cab with a pair of SM56s on it, so is it assumed that particular cab had a mix of GBs and JBLs with a mic on each?
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I’m not at all an EVH guy or afficionado, but I believe those speakers to be it simply because I hear aspects of the pulsonic GB’s and JBL’s in his tone based on my experience using those speakers by themselves and once I combined them with JBL’s on top i got that sound and it just made sense to me. Doesn’t mean it’s 100% for sure what he used, but either way I don’t care because it gave me one of the better sounding speaker combos I’ve tried without that hollow thing he had since I wasn’t using those assymetrical humbuckers that I never liked. I got most of what I liked about his sound without the stuff I don’t like
 
braintheory said:
I’m not at all an EVH guy or afficionado, but I believe those speakers to be it simply because I hear aspects of the pulsonic GB’s and JBL’s in his tone based on my experience using those speakers by themselves and once I combined them with JBL’s on top i got that sound and it just made sense to me. Doesn’t mean it’s 100% for sure what he used, but either way I don’t care because it gave me one of the better sounding speaker combos I’ve tried without that hollow thing he had since I wasn’t using those assymetrical humbuckers that I never liked
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Right, I was just trying to figure out where the prevailing thought came from initially that JBLs may have been on the album.

It’s impossible to tell what’s actually on there, but always fun to speculate. I go back and forth based on the clips. When you hear the room mic from the take of Eruption, the upper end sizzle isn’t overpowering as you’d expect if there were a pair of JBLs on top drowning out the GBs. The two solo mic clips from You Really Got Me certainly has a more crispy one, but at the same time, it’s not so dramatic that different mic placement couldn’t account for what I’m hearing. So, I don’t know, haha.

More food for thought - while debating Pulsonic era vs Blackback for the GBs, I’d also add in the question of whether the cones (regardless of era) were original? One of things stressed to me from guys that used to provide back lines to the stars and do repair in the ‘60s and ‘70s was how few cones survived, I quote - “I think the only speakers that survived back in those days were the ones collecting dust in the basement.” Was told that what you hear on countless albums were reconed speakers, and they used whatever kits they could get their hands on at the time (like WF) because they were just worried about getting it done quick. Quite a few speakers were reconed many times over.

Given that EVH seemed to like things on 11, did he tear through some speakers? Have them reconed or just swap them out with new ones? Did his original speakers survive long enough to make it onto an album? It’s an endless amount of possibility.
 
NewWorldMan said:
Right, I was just trying to figure out where the prevailing thought came from initially that JBLs may have been on the album.

It’s impossible to tell what’s actually on there, but always fun to speculate. I go back and forth based on the clips. When you hear the room mic from the take of Eruption, the upper end sizzle isn’t overpowering as you’d expect if there were a pair of JBLs on top drowning out the GBs. The two solo mic clips from You Really Got Me certainly has a more crispy one, but at the same time, it’s not so dramatic that different mic placement couldn’t account for what I’m hearing. So, I don’t know, haha.

More food for thought - while debating Pulsonic era vs Blackback for the GBs, I’d also add in the question of whether the cones (regardless of era) were original? One of things stressed to me from guys that used to provide back lines to the stars and do repair in the ‘60s and ‘70s was how few cones survived, I quote - “I think the only speakers that survived back in those days were the ones collecting dust in the basement.” Was told that what you hear on countless albums were reconed speakers, and they used whatever kits they could get their hands on at the time (like WF) because they were just worried about getting it done quick. Quite a few speakers were reconed many times over.

Given that EVH seemed to like things on 11, did he tear through some speakers? Have them reconed or just swap them out with new ones? Did his original speakers survive long enough to make it onto an album? It’s an endless amount of possibility.
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Those are some interesting points. Some of the JBL’s I have that are Re-coned aren’t as sizzly or biting (still plenty bright though), so maybe that could explain some of it. All the JBL’s I have though still have this sparkly, glassy quality and upper end detail that’s unique to the JBL sound even with the Re-coned ones I have and I feel that I hear those qualities as part of what’s unique in EVH’s sound
 
Here are a quad of 55HZ Celestion Heritage 12H-30's. I hear alot of Ed in these speakers and I have been on the Ed lore quest for quite some time.



Here is clip with a quad of Scumback M75's and two Scumback M75's and two WGS ET65's if I am remembering thing correctly.
 
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NewWorldMan said:
As someone that’s not a student of EVH, perhaps you guys can educate me. Why is it believed that JBLs were used on the album (VH I)? There was only one cab with a pair of SM56s on it, so is it assumed that particular cab had a mix of GBs and JBLs with a mic on each?
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It's pretty well known that one of Ed's cabs without any tolex had 2 JBL 120s and 2 GBs. Here's an old RT post with the guitar tracks isolated ..

https://www.rig-talk.com/forum/thre...jbl-speakers-original-tracks-from-vh1.171454/
Pretty cool, and that sizzle is what I hear out of my JBL 123s. But, they are dominated by the GBs when I listen to the songs. I just hear that signature sizzle of the high treble of the JBLs.
 
Racerxrated said:
It's pretty well known that one of Ed's cabs without any tolex had 2 JBL 120s and 2 GBs. Here's an old RT post with the guitar tracks isolated ..

https://www.rig-talk.com/forum/thre...jbl-speakers-original-tracks-from-vh1.171454/
Pretty cool, and that sizzle is what I hear out of my JBL 123s. But, they are dominated by the GBs when I listen to the songs. I just hear that signature sizzle of the high treble of the JBLs.
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That's a great video. I can hear the tone there between the two speakers. Those JBL's are definitely on the album. No doubt in my mind.
 
Racerxrated said:
It's pretty well known that one of Ed's cabs without any tolex had 2 JBL 120s and 2 GBs. Here's an old RT post with the guitar tracks isolated ..

https://www.rig-talk.com/forum/thre...jbl-speakers-original-tracks-from-vh1.171454/
Pretty cool, and that sizzle is what I hear out of my JBL 123s. But, they are dominated by the GBs when I listen to the songs. I just hear that signature sizzle of the high treble of the JBLs.
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Got it. I’ve seen a couple of JBLs in that one straight cab at Sunset Studios during VH II. I don’t think I’ve ever seen any in a slant cab like he used on VH I. Not that I’ve been looking, haha.
 

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G12h30's def have the sizzle. I regret selling mine years ago for peanuts to make way for some Weber's. I always thought the 12H30's did amazing cleans too. For the VH tone, ultimately it was Ed himself who made that tone. We say it over and over but everybody is very close and in the ballpark so I get the tone chase. It's fun.
 
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