LESPAULY69
Active member
Nailed that tone!
Kapo_Polenton
Well-known member
Sounds good to my ears! How much did you do to your 800 to get that gain? We talking 4-5 part swaps or more extensive ?
RedPlated
Well-known member
I was happy with the tone from the 800. It gets pretty close and at low volume too.
The amp is pretty heavily modded. I’ll attach a couple pics of the features it’s got. It’s essentially a Jose master with diode clipping. But it’s got a lot of flexibility with the controls. It does pretty much everything.
This one also has depth, negative feedback and loop level controls on back. It’s got a Metro loop. Gain style on front is a 6-way rotary diode clipping switch. With 20v down to 5v zeners diodes.
You could easily get the amount of gain in that clip out of an 800 with a few component changes. The gain is actually set around half and the diodes and gain boost are out of circuit in this clip.
The amp is pretty heavily modded. I’ll attach a couple pics of the features it’s got. It’s essentially a Jose master with diode clipping. But it’s got a lot of flexibility with the controls. It does pretty much everything.
This one also has depth, negative feedback and loop level controls on back. It’s got a Metro loop. Gain style on front is a 6-way rotary diode clipping switch. With 20v down to 5v zeners diodes.
You could easily get the amount of gain in that clip out of an 800 with a few component changes. The gain is actually set around half and the diodes and gain boost are out of circuit in this clip.
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harddriver
Well-known member
The 800 sounds great Redplated nothing wrong with that tone right there. Is this a 2203 100 watter?
Kapo_Polenton
Well-known member
Nice, I have a diode switch in mine but not sure which ones they are, they do more of a beefy gain deal and i would like it to cut more. Would love a rotary switch. That's a great idea.Thanks. I was happy with the tone from the 800. It gets pretty close and at low volume too.
The amp is pretty heavily modded. I’ll attach a couple pics of the features it’s got. It’s essentially a Jose master with diode clipping. But it’s got a lot of flexibility with the controls. It does pretty much everything.
This one also has depth, negative feedback and loop level controls on back. It’s got a Metro loop. Gain style on front is a 6-way rotary diode clipping switch. With 20v down to 5v zeners diodes.
You could easily get the amount of gain in that clip out of an 800 with a few component changes. The gain is actually set around half and the diodes and gain boost are out of circuit in this clip.
RedPlated
Well-known member
It’s a 2204 50w.
I’m running Sovtek 6550 in it. The internal B+ voltages are set for a nice sag. It’s a great feeling amp to play.
I play it without the diodes most of the time. It’s got plenty of gain. But there’s a big difference in the compression and darkness between the different voltage diodes. The switches and diodes are so cheap, and it’s a fairly easy mod.
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harddriver
Well-known member
Hey Redplated, I thought since you were on a 1984 tone quest I figured I would let you know the Eventide Pitchfactor is fabulous and has exceeded all my expectations for getting the more subtle FW, DD, 1984, 5150, OU812 tones using the H910/949 model.
Even the H3000 micropitch algorithm can detune/uptune down to 1 cent each +1-1 which is pretty close to the .999 detune setting used on the H910/949's.
I know you are using a Rack unit that you seem satisfied with as was I with my Boss PS-5's but the Eventide is just on another level, the quality of the detunes is an amazing improvement in fidelity and dynamics. I regret being a cheap ass when the Pitchfactor came out and not picking it up almost ten years ago.
It's easy to setup and route, I used a single mono input and the pitchfactor splits that into two stereo outputs easy peasy and the parameters are easily changed no having to access banks of parameters scrolling through menus, it real time knobs for all the parameter.
So if you are a stickler for a more accurate 1984 tone I would say it might be worth your time to check out a Pitchfactor.
Even the H3000 micropitch algorithm can detune/uptune down to 1 cent each +1-1 which is pretty close to the .999 detune setting used on the H910/949's.
I know you are using a Rack unit that you seem satisfied with as was I with my Boss PS-5's but the Eventide is just on another level, the quality of the detunes is an amazing improvement in fidelity and dynamics. I regret being a cheap ass when the Pitchfactor came out and not picking it up almost ten years ago.
It's easy to setup and route, I used a single mono input and the pitchfactor splits that into two stereo outputs easy peasy and the parameters are easily changed no having to access banks of parameters scrolling through menus, it real time knobs for all the parameter.
So if you are a stickler for a more accurate 1984 tone I would say it might be worth your time to check out a Pitchfactor.
RedPlated
Well-known member
Awesome! I've always been interested in that pedal. I appreciate the feedback on it.
Lately I've been looking for an Eventide Eclipse to replace my TC G Major 2. I would assume that has similar features as the Pitchfactor built in.
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matttornado
Active member
Just thinking...Ya know, I spent years on the metro forum trying all kinds of specs and mods and after learning about the Jose clipper mod, I'm not surprised if Ed's amp had clipping diodes, especially in the beginning before others got their hands on it for restoration. who knows, right?
maybe that white knob on the back of Ed's amp in the early days was a master volume with the clipping diodes. It is very possible that he just kept it dimmed and used the variac. I kind of remember reading an interview where he says he kept that knob on the back cranked all the time.
just my 2cents.
maybe that white knob on the back of Ed's amp in the early days was a master volume with the clipping diodes. It is very possible that he just kept it dimmed and used the variac. I kind of remember reading an interview where he says he kept that knob on the back cranked all the time.
just my 2cents.
psychodave
Well-known member
I think his amp had a Jose master with diodes across it. If you notice... over time Ed's tone gets a bit cleaner. Evidence without proof shows you the way Jose did the diodes that a little bit of DC voltage hit the diodes every time Ed used his amp. Over time, this affects the diodes and how they clip. Into 1984 Ed's core tone is there, but with a lot less saturation.
We always hear of big amp builders and modders saying the amp was stock. Great, show me that they were in the amp from 1978-1980 and I'll believe them. Being inside the amp in 1990 after all of the mods were removed doesnt count. We all know you can see what looks like a plastic shaft sticking out of the back of his amp... then its gone in later years... because it was tinkered with.
Kapo_Polenton
Well-known member
The only i thing I would question is why bother removing the mod then if it worked so well? Wouldn't you just leave that in and then ask someone to replicate that across your other amps? I'm willing to accept diode clipping though but i also think the variac and slaving produces pretty convincing results. Now do they produce THE result. There does seem to be a lot of gain on that first album that is not there on the second. Who knows. He would have sounded just as good boosting the front end with a micro amp so it doesn't keep me up at night.
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harddriver
Well-known member
This was a certain well known amp builders' conclusion as well about the pot on the back of Ed's 12301 plexi. When I built my Ed plexi it was built with a Jose Master with 20V diodes on a push/pull pot. Now the difference is a bit more subtle on plexi circuit versus a JCM800 circuit I do feel it adds some grind to the tone and the harmonics are a bit enhanced/different when the diodes are engaged similar to the effect you hear on Jose Master JCM/JMP 800 amps versus completely bypassed. You really have to have one installed to hear if you like what it does to reach your own conclusion. I would say for VH1 I prefer for the diodes to be engaged for VHII I still like them engaged, my difference is the pickup. For VH1 I like the MM1400(9K) and for VHII I prefer my 78 model PAF(9K) which is a bit warmer less crunchy/grindy than the MM1400.
I've said this before the SD78 model sound spot on for VHII/1984 but falls short of the aggressive grind/crunch found on VH1, enter the MM1400 maybe the 1300 the way the pickup grinds is very specific to the oversize ceramic magnet and bondable wire use in the coils, very similar to the Dimarzio Super Distortion construction.
For WACF I'm back to the MM1400 (9K )for that VH1 type of crunchy, grind. For DD/ 1984 tone its a 8-9K PAF A-2/A-5 magnet all the way IMHO, pretty much confirmed if you listen to Redplated clips of his 69 Marshall and a SD59B with an A-2 magnet.
For Fair Warning I'm leaning to the 9K PAF as it is a warmer tone than VH1, WACF which is aggressive and crunchy as F%&$K just like VH1 maybe even more so.
The question is when did the potentiometer with the white shaft disappear from 12301? Was it in there when Van Weelden rebuilt it in the 90's? Who else worked on it up until then. Jose Arredondo and then who else? I'm am unaware of any further pics of the back of the amp since the VHII studio picture showing the white shaft knob. it may have been in there up until Van Wheelden rebuilt it. There is a pic of 12301's back from a 1990's article on EVH and at that time the pot was removed and replaced with a plug.
Alot of threads on Metroamp about the white shaft pot on the back of 12301.
http://forum.metropoulos.net/viewtopic.php?t=29168&start=105
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RedPlated
Well-known member
Interesting info and great post, Hardriver. You’ve done you’re research for sure.
It is a mystery with that damn pot in the back of the amp. When I see it on the left rear panel I try to think - what’s near there in the circuit that would cause it to be placed there ? It’s near the first and second stage components. Maybe tied into v2 cathode and tone stack for the Jose master and diodes. That could make sense with the placement I guess. Was it a push/ pull though? And a plastic shaft?
I do remember Friedman and Suhr saying most of the solder joints still had the Marshall red dye in place.
It is a mystery with that damn pot in the back of the amp. When I see it on the left rear panel I try to think - what’s near there in the circuit that would cause it to be placed there ? It’s near the first and second stage components. Maybe tied into v2 cathode and tone stack for the Jose master and diodes. That could make sense with the placement I guess. Was it a push/ pull though? And a plastic shaft?
I do remember Friedman and Suhr saying most of the solder joints still had the Marshall red dye in place.
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bmf5150
Member
Was panama recorded with franky or the 5150??if it was the 5150 Larry dimarzio said it had a broken JB pickup.
https://d2emr0qhzqfj88.cloudfront.net/s3fs-public/2021-02/DiMarzio_RememberingVanHalen.pdf
https://d2emr0qhzqfj88.cloudfront.net/s3fs-public/2021-02/DiMarzio_RememberingVanHalen.pdf
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harddriver
Well-known member
Yeah... we really dove deep into the Ed lore on Metroamp circa 2005-2009, tons of fun...
Supposedly Van Wheelden reworked 12301 and used teflon wire in the 90's. I'm not sure exactly when but Mike Soldano also did some work to it as well. And John Suhr was in that amp also. Dave Friedman actually rebuilt the enitre amp with the wire and needed parts from another era correct donor amp, wire, pots, maybe transormers Dave did not elaborate on everything he did but he did say at the time he had it it was 100% stock with a certain value Mids pot and a couple of other oddball stuff. I have some pics of 12301 but only the input side of the board, that picture was never fully corroborated either. Bob Bradshaw is another that might have been in that amp in the 80's, I think that's how Suhr got to see it/work on it.
I think Dave's account of 12301 is correct but only a few guys were in that amp circa 1977-78.
I would say the plastic shaft pot in 12301 was not a push/pull so the diodes would be wired to the pot making them not bypassable. I installed my 1 Meg pot for the Jose Master on my 68 using the open 4th preamp tube socket next to V1 and used some shield wire to run to V2 where the Jose taps off of. The push/pull pot was my doing so I could engage and disengage the diodes depending on what I liked, I never use the Jose master as a master it is always dimed.
If you remember 12301 was the house amp used at one of the clubs Ed played at... probably why it had a master volume installed who knows?
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harddriver
Well-known member
Hey Stan how are you? I hope all things are well with you and the family!!
Anything is possible with ED IMHO... but there were some people I think it was Unkert or somebody that confirmed the Kramer 5150 was Poplar and not basswood and he might have said the pickup was a JB I can't remember. Other's said it was a SD59B with an A-2 magnet on the 1984 album and at this point I am in agreement with that assessment especially if you listen to Redlated's clips back earlier in the thread where he compares a 2nd degreeBB, the stock SD59B A-5 mag and the SD59B with the A-2 which is pretty similar to my SD78model.
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harddriver
Well-known member
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harddriver
Well-known member
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harddriver
Well-known member
Kapo_Polenton
Well-known member
I'm assuming those orange drops would give that tone a little more aggressive bite..