Wizard MTL vs MC shootout UPDATE WITH DOUBLE TRACK IN ORIGINAL POST

[DanTravis62]

Aren't most of the guys here playing Ratt/Poison/Kokken riffs anyways?? Does one need "harmonic content" Bloom" "3d characteristics" (whatever the fukk these descriptions mean) for this stuff

Either that or Fischer Price "My first screaming music" bands like Gojira and Meshuggah

 

[braintheory]

im not sure i understand some of the technical terms you use, filtered to me is how to describe the rolled off and dull top end i hear in wizards, and cocked wah would be the uncompressed and hollow thing i hear going on in the mids, neither of which i hear in the uber. washed out palm mutes to me sounds like the compression and "chung" metal guys want. whatever the terms, the UU to me at least has a unique vibe that is way more interesting and something I would like to give a go with some of my different guitars and cabs and see what I can come up with, the wizards sound like a “generic rock” setting in an axe or something

We all can have different ways of describing sound. I guess what I mean is the Ultra sounds synthetic and filtered I guess of any warmth or richness in sound. In person you’d hear it pretty clearly and that’s why it comes off cardboardy to me. Maybe this is what Dan meant by no transients, not sure. I actually found the old Ampeg’s and Randall’s he mentioned more interesting sounding than the Ultra I had, but they sound IME still flat/2D when AB’ed vs a good tube counterpart

Wizards have a hollow midrange that I’m not a fan of, but there still is a rawness and detail around the notes (that the Ultra does not have an iota of) almost like a vintage amp (not quite), but these are the types of details that clips don’t seem to be capable of showing (well at least). It seems you’re left with the overall tone profile in them and I understand if it’s not your cup of tea it won’t come off well, but those little details as well as the punch and clarity is what makes those amps so enjoyable in person. For me at least when I AB’ed my Hell Razor to the Ultra I had it was no contest and I’m a huge Uber fan, but the ones to get are the 1st 2 revisions they made. The Rev 1 Uber is my favorite high gain amp with the Rev C being a very close 2nd. Again maybe in clips these different revisions are close enough for government work, but I care about in person comparisons

 

[311splawndude]

There is a lot of anger in this thread. Wish we had like a cage for R-T disagreements and debaucheryView attachment 329514View attachment 329517

+1 FFS

Thanks for posting clips @Bram576 and I thought the Uber clip was awesome

Good thing we all don't like the same things right?

 

[Beyond Black]

Definitely some of this going on. Except people who buy BMWs truly are assholes. lol

What’s the difference between a porcupine and a BMW?

The BMW’s got its pricks on the inside

 

[DanTravis62]

We all can have different ways of describing sound. I guess what I mean is the Ultra sounds synthetic and filtered I guess of any warmth or richness in sound. In person you’d hear it pretty clearly and that’s why it comes off cardboardy to me. Maybe this is what Dan meant by no transients, not sure. I actually found the old Ampeg’s and Randall’s he mentioned more interesting sounding than the Ultra I had, but they sound IME still flat/2D when AB’ed vs a good tube counterpart

Wizards have a hollow midrange that I’m not a fan of, but there still is a rawness and detail around the notes (that the Ultra does not have an iota of) almost like a vintage amp (not quite), but these are the types of details that clips don’t seem to be capable of showing (well at least). It seems you’re left with the overall tone profile in them and I understand if it’s not your cup of tea it won’t come off well, but those little details as well as the punch and clarity is what makes those amps so enjoyable in person. For me at least when I AB’ed my Hell Razor to the Ultra I had it was no contest and I’m a huge Uber fan, but the ones to get are the 1st 2 revisions they made. The Rev 1 Uber is my favorite high gain amp with the Rev C being a very close 2nd. Again maybe in clips these different revisions are close enough for government work, but I care about in person comparisons

No, by transients i'm talking about the "mix" of the clean/cleanish tone. The clean transient notes pop out in most high gain amps, especially when you hit hard. Whether people realize it or not, this is what creates both the "Clarity" and "note separation" in high gain amps.

It's especially apparent in old plexis, larrys, wizards, SLO100s, Steavens, naylors, and a few others, but its always there to varying degrees.

I literally hear no clean transient coming through on that Ultra clip.

 

[Racerxrated]

We all can have different ways of describing sound. I guess what I mean is the Ultra sounds synthetic and filtered I guess of any warmth or richness in sound. In person you’d hear it pretty clearly and that’s why it comes off cardboardy to me. Maybe this is what Dan meant by no transients, not sure. I actually found the old Ampeg’s and Randall’s he mentioned more interesting sounding than the Ultra I had, but they sound IME still flat/2D when AB’ed vs a good tube counterpart

Wizards have a hollow midrange that I’m not a fan of, but there still is a rawness and detail around the notes (that the Ultra does not have an iota of) almost like a vintage amp (not quite), but these are the types of details that clips don’t seem to be capable of showing (well at least). It seems you’re left with the overall tone profile in them and I understand if it’s not your cup of tea it won’t come off well, but those little details as well as the punch and clarity is what makes those amps so enjoyable in person. For me at least when I AB’ed my Hell Razor to the Ultra I had it was no contest and I’m a huge Uber fan, but the ones to get are the 1st 2 revisions they made. The Rev 1 Uber is my favorite high gain amp with the Rev C being a very close 2nd. Again maybe in clips these different revisions are close enough for government work, but I care about in person comparisons

There seems to be a few on this board that consider 'how an amp records' to be the first and most important thing to them. I guess for me being a live player for 35 yrs, it's the 'in the room sound' that I'm most interested in.
I've only recorded twice; once back in 89 with 2 inch tape, and 20 yrs ago with a ProTools system that was like 50k at the time. Both times, the engineer didn't care WHAT amp I brought in....he made it work.

 

[Beyond Black]

How do you set yours up?
Here’s my MTL below Sam’s HR, who was kind enough to temporarily swap amps with me (thanks Sam!)
These are non boosted settings, and boosted (usually with Fortin TS9) I’d push in saturation boost, ride depth a little higher, and lower lead gain to around 9-10 o’clock. Lately I’ve also been digging saturation higher, around 3-4 o’clock.
Mids will also vary between 11-1. Presence my vary also, but usually at least around 4 o’clock.
In the room my tone is extremely similar to Sotiris’ MTL clips, with that wicked saw like thing going in the highs.
Such a fuckin BEAST of an amp. Nothing pretty about it, just raw, rude, wicked evil jack hammer like aggression.
It’s an amp with baaaaaaaad intentions…lol

 

[braintheory]

No, by transients i'm talking about the "mix" of the clean/cleanish tone. The clean transient notes pop out in most high gain amps, especially when you hit hard. Whether people realize it or not, this is what creates both the "Clarity" and "note separation" in high gain amps.

It's especially apparent in old plexis, larrys, wizards, SLO100s, Steavens, naylors, and a few others, but its always there to varying degrees.

I literally hear no clean transient coming through on that Ultra clip.

I don’t know how to explain sound in more technical ways like that, but I do love all those amps you mentioned. They’re all to me a lot more dynamic and receptive to nuances in playing vs the ultra I had

 

[braintheory]

There seems to be a few on this board that consider 'how an amp records' to be the first and most important thing to them. I guess for me being a live player for 35 yrs, it's the 'in the room sound' that I'm most interested in.
I've only recorded twice; once back in 89 with 2 inch tape, and 20 yrs ago with a ProTools system that was like 50k at the time. Both times, the engineer didn't care WHAT amp I brought in....he made it work.

Yeah it’s sort of like saying this looks great in person, but what really matters is how well does it photograph

Maybe I’m naive, but I believe anything that sounds great in person should be capable of also sounding great in a recording, but maybe just requires more work for some amps. Likewise I think anything that looks great should also be able to photograph well with enough work

Ultimately also I think it’s a hell of a lot more fun to play a great amp in person than it is make a recording of it, but we all like different things. Whatever we find more fun

 

[311splawndude]

People play amps/music for different reasons. I think we can all agree to that. Some play strictly for their own benefit. Some play to record and make a living (for example).

And as @DanTravis62 and @VESmedic know best - not all mics are created equal and not very many can replicate what the human ear is hearing in the room.

But I'm a noob anyway so feel free to disregard

 

[Bram576]

People play amps/music for different reasons. I think we can all agree to that. Some play strictly for their own benefit. Some play to record and make a living (for example).

And as @DanTravis62 and @VESmedic know best - not all mics are created equal and not very many can replicate what the human ear is hearing in the room.

But I'm a noob anyway so feel free to disregard

I feel like mics do a good job. 90 percent of the time what’s recorded if it’s someone I trust, then hear the amp in person I’m like yep…. That’s what I heard. If they didn’t eq the fuck out of it. I will say what causes different opinions I feel is placement of a microphone. We don’t listen with our head at speaker level, either sitting next to it or standing. Anything micd will be brighter just on position alone. And we hear things in person in stereo as well. A single mono track isn’t going to give that same surround sound feel. That’s why so many guys like iPhone clips lol. Because it gives a full stereo image and it’s not right at the dust cap.

 

[braintheory]

I feel like mics do a good job. 90 percent of the time what’s recorded if it’s someone I trust, then hear the amp in person I’m like yep…. That’s what I heard. If they didn’t eq the fuck out of it. I will say what causes different opinions I feel is placement of a microphone. We don’t listen with our head at speaker level, either sitting next to it or standing. Anything micd will be brighter just on position alone. And we hear things in person in stereo as well. A single mono track isn’t going to give that same surround sound feel. That’s why so many guys like iPhone clips lol. Because it gives a full stereo image and it’s not right at the dust cap.

I can agree with you on all that except I still often find there are many little details in the sound important to me that I rarely hear in recordings. Not the case of course with most modern amps that I don’t care for anyway that lack those details, but with special amps like IIC+’s, Jim Kelley, ‘60’s Plexi’s, a few others I’m probably forgetting, I just didn’t really get those amps until I heard one in person and even now I’m like this clip I hear of them barely scratches the surface of what makes them special and for me at least it’s not about the thump/punch or feel with those amps in why I love them

 

[DanTravis62]

People play amps/music for different reasons. I think we can all agree to that. Some play strictly for their own benefit. Some play to record and make a living (for example).

And as @DanTravis62 and @VESmedic know best - not all mics are created equal and not very many can replicate what the human ear is hearing in the room.

But I'm a noob anyway so feel free to disregard

I feel like mics do a good job. 90 percent of the time what’s recorded if it’s someone I trust, then hear the amp in person I’m like yep…. That’s what I heard. If they didn’t eq the fuck out of it. I will say what causes different opinions I feel is placement of a microphone. We don’t listen with our head at speaker level, either sitting next to it or standing. Anything micd will be brighter just on position alone. And we hear things in person in stereo as well. A single mono track isn’t going to give that same surround sound feel. That’s why so many guys like iPhone clips lol. Because it gives a full stereo image and it’s not right at the dust cap.

I can with you on all that except I still often find there are many little details in the sound important to me that I rarely hear in recordings. Not the case of course with most modern amps that I don’t care for anyway that lack those details, but with special amps like IIC+’s, Jim Kelley, ‘60’s Plexi’s, a few others I’m probably forgetting, I just didn’t really get those amps until I heard one in person and even now I’m like this clip I hear of them barely scratches the surface of what makes them special and for me at least it’s not about the thump/punch or feel with those amps in why I love them

It's certainly possible to get an amps character across in a recording, but it's rather difficult and time consuming to do

people like me (and medic, etc etc) who've spent ungodly time behind a console are GENERALLY trying to make the amp do what our imagination wants; we aren't trying to represent what the amp "wants" to do.

I can hear a pretty simple on axis 57 clip and know most of what I need to know about the amp, but I'm making assumptions about the small details that sam is talking about, from the clip, most of the time.


That's why with the Uber I said I reserve judgement even though I don't think that clip is very flattering.

 

[RaceU4her]

the engineer didn't care WHAT amp I brought in....he made it work.

of course he didnt, "ill make it work" is a great term for "im gonna make you believe youre playing your own amp and tell you how great it is so you are happy and comfortable, and then as soon as you leave ill reamp it with my DSL". its the oldest trick in the book

 

[DanTravis62]

I don't know, I guess all I'm really rambling about is how clips can have their issues with showing some things

Alot of that is the record-ers personality, too, as well as their playing

At least if theyre any good at recording

I like super sharp, tight, surgical sounding guitar sounds, and have to TRY to make my guitar sounds "normal" - though I pretty easily can do that

Medic likes big, beefy, century media style guitar sounds, but he can obviously do anything in any style just as I can

What i'm getting at is subconciously, from dialing the amp in, to the mic position and DAW choices that were made along the way, even with very simple setups our personal preferences get baked into any clip

Shit watch Rezas videos, he makes literally every high end high gain amp on planet earth sound the same

of course he didnt, "ill make it work" is a great term for "im gonna make you believe youre playing your own amp and tell you how great it is so you are happy and comfortable, and then as soon as you leave ill reamp it with my DSL". its the oldest trick in the book

I sincerely doubt he reamped it back in the year 2000 without an obvious direct box set up that racer would have noticed lol


I've done something like that more recently with a line 6 firehawk obsessed guy though so i know what you're getting at

 

[RaceU4her]

I sincerely doubt he reamped it back in the year 2000 without an obvious direct box set up that racer would have noticed lol


I've done something like that more recently with a line 6 firehawk obsessed guy though so i know what you're getting at

i knew a guy who would do it, he'd leave the original amp in the mix at like .5db just to say it was technically there. i mean i understand from the studio side, you dont want shitty stuff coming out of your studio cause someone demands to use their bunk gear, not exactly a good look

 

[braintheory]

Alot of that is the record-ers personality, too, as well as their playing

At least if theyre any good at recording

I like super sharp, tight, surgical sounding guitar sounds, and have to TRY to make my guitar sounds "normal" - though I pretty easily can do that

Medic likes big, beefy, century media style guitar sounds, but he can obviously do anything in any style just as I can

What i'm getting at is subconciously, from dialing the amp in, to the mic position and DAW choices that were made along the way, even with very simple setups our personal preferences get baked into any clip

Shit watch Rezas videos, he makes literally every high end high gain amp on planet earth sound the same



I sincerely doubt he reamped it back in the year 2000 without an obvious direct box set up that racer would have noticed lol


I've done something like that more recently with a line 6 firehawk obsessed guy though so i know what you're getting at

Haha I deleted my post before because it seemed a bit aimless and I'm very tired and hungry now (not so sharp right now), but I agree on that. I like all those flavors of sound and try to play up to what I feel is each individual piece of gear's forte. I suck at recording since I just don't have as much experience or knowledge with it, but I hope it at least comes through in the times I've tried that I make the pieces sound quite different from each other as a result. I guess the attributes I like to keep consistent are sufficient complexity in tone (no filtered or cardboard-y type sounds for me), notes connecting well and not too thin of a sound, but the former 2 are I think some of the harder parts to capture in a clip

I like to also have very growly powerchords, but I also understand that many amps I love for other reasons just can't do that well like Wizard's, Hiwatt's, some Hermansson's, etc.

Yeah I have trouble often getting a feel for amps from a lot of Reza's demos unfortunately

 

[Racerxrated]

of course he didnt, "ill make it work" is a great term for "im gonna make you believe youre playing your own amp and tell you how great it is so you are happy and comfortable, and then as soon as you leave ill reamp it with my DSL". its the oldest trick in the book

You're a funny guy.

In 1989, the DSL didn't exist.

Try again.

 

[Racerxrated]

Alot of that is the record-ers personality, too, as well as their playing

At least if theyre any good at recording

I like super sharp, tight, surgical sounding guitar sounds, and have to TRY to make my guitar sounds "normal" - though I pretty easily can do that

Medic likes big, beefy, century media style guitar sounds, but he can obviously do anything in any style just as I can

What i'm getting at is subconciously, from dialing the amp in, to the mic position and DAW choices that were made along the way, even with very simple setups our personal preferences get baked into any clip

Shit watch Rezas videos, he makes literally every high end high gain amp on planet earth sound the same



I sincerely doubt he reamped it back in the year 2000 without an obvious direct box set up that racer would have noticed lol


I've done something like that more recently with a line 6 firehawk obsessed guy though so i know what you're getting at

Yeah, 1989 no DSLs lol; and 2000 the engineer was/is a good friend and no, he recorded my ADA mini rack.

 

[Metalhex]

Holy crap these amps sound awesome. They're aggressive without being too harsh (at least in this video). This must be why they are worth so much.