Thumbpicker
Well-known member
You need to check the doctrine of the churches you attend against the Bible. You are responsible for your own salvation. Not the church. It's between you and God.
Proof the Earth is round
- Thread starter 311splawndude
- Start date
acceptance
Well-known member
Take just the predestination issue. Both of the sides claim to be based on what the scriptures say. Yet you clearly believe that your side is correct and the other incorrect. The only explanation for this is that you have a different interpretation of what the scripture say. What I'm trying to tell you is that there are many interpretations of what the scriptures say and something like the Orthodox or Catholic churches have a better claim of consistency in that the church itself is said to be authorized by God to interpret scripture. Once you start saying that any individual can interpret scripture then you can get for example gay marriage and female ministers.
Thumbpicker
Well-known member
Certain denominations have however set out their doctrines with the justification supported by the scripture eg. like in the Canons of Dort. When you have what you believe set out and supported like that it makes it hard for that denomination to move away from scripture eg. in response to progressive societal degeneracy. If a church shifts to appease popular society then you end up with a secular club like a rotary club - not a church that follows God's word. God is an unchanging God. Therefore, God's word does not change in response to degeneracy. You can't have the Church of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Predestination is clearly supported by the Bible and it's also very logical when you think about it. It's not particularly palatable to people that think they are their own gods and are in control of their own destinies. When you put it like that you can see why it's wrong as well. We are not in control; God is. You know that is true. God is always in control.
acceptance
Well-known member
It's far from clearly supported, although I grant there is some limited support. But you really have to twist the rest of scriptures and understand god's pleadings in a hollow sort of way to accommodate the view. One can acknowledge humans don't have total control of their destiny or their lives and still not believe in a specific god or any god.
VonBonfire
Well-known member
And if you have no choice in the matter, why waste a perfectly good sunday morning at a church that says JUSTIFICATION THROUGH FAITH ALONE? Ok great, done, now I can stay home. It's not wrong but that's an oversimplification that leads to people saying what I just said and calling it a day cause that's the logical conclusion to draw. He's run the sacraments into the mud, he's run 2000 years of saints and martyrs (and their non canonical writings) into the mud, he's run the early church fathers into the mud but then somehow decides his trump card is Spurgeon. He says the communion isn't literal body and blood in complete contradiction to some of the very earliest days of the church. He doesn't believe in apostolic succession but he demands complete allegiance to the scriptures the apostles wrote. Protestantism is a theological dumpster fire which is why all of them disagree meanwhile most of eastern europe is all in communion with each other in orthodoxy.
Thumbpicker
Well-known member
VonBonfire
Well-known member
I'm pretty sure you take that on faith too.
acceptance
Well-known member
acceptance
Well-known member
Well well well...
"Both Calvin and Luther rejected Copernicus as a heretic in the 16th century."
"This [Geocentric] understanding of the universe had been articulated most thoroughly by Ptolemy (ca. AD 90–ca. AD 168) and had been accepted by Christians for fifteen hundred years because they believed it was taught in passages such as Joshua 10:12–14 and the many passages that refer to the sun's rising or setting. Like most Christians (and scientists) of their day, Martin Luther and John Calvin believed geocentrism to be a true description of God’s creation."
"Luther suggests that it is wicked to deny that there are literal waters above the firmament to which the sun and stars are fastened. Why did he believe this was an undeniable fact? Because he believed Scripture taught it clearly in Genesis 1."
https://www.ligonier.org/learn/arti...nicus-reformed-approach-science-and-scripture
"Both Calvin and Luther rejected Copernicus as a heretic in the 16th century."
"This [Geocentric] understanding of the universe had been articulated most thoroughly by Ptolemy (ca. AD 90–ca. AD 168) and had been accepted by Christians for fifteen hundred years because they believed it was taught in passages such as Joshua 10:12–14 and the many passages that refer to the sun's rising or setting. Like most Christians (and scientists) of their day, Martin Luther and John Calvin believed geocentrism to be a true description of God’s creation."
"Luther suggests that it is wicked to deny that there are literal waters above the firmament to which the sun and stars are fastened. Why did he believe this was an undeniable fact? Because he believed Scripture taught it clearly in Genesis 1."
https://www.ligonier.org/learn/arti...nicus-reformed-approach-science-and-scripture
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VonBonfire
Well-known member
VonBonfire
Well-known member
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2012/09/john-calvin-assumes-non-spherical-earth.html
This comes from Calvin’s Institutes of the Christian Religion (Book I, 5:11
This comes from Calvin’s Institutes of the Christian Religion (Book I, 5:11
acceptance
Well-known member
Good find!https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2012/09/john-calvin-assumes-non-spherical-earth.html
This comes from Calvin’s Institutes of the Christian Religion (Book I, 5:11
MontiCristo
Well-known member
As is Usually the case with many posts on this thread, neither @acceptance or @VonBonfire know anything of the reformed protestant position. It seems to me that both just want to "dog out" or make fun of Protestantism. Of particular note is that one @VonBonfire never uses any resources to back up His claims, just blind "church tradition". The reality is the scriptures are replete with references to salvation being of God monergistically.
There is no true "libertarian free will".
Daniel 4:35 is abundantly clear on this fact.
35“And all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
But He does according to His will in the host of heaven
And among the inhabitants of earth;
And no one can strike against His hand
Or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’
There is no true "libertarian free will".
Daniel 4:35 is abundantly clear on this fact.
35“And all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
But He does according to His will in the host of heaven
And among the inhabitants of earth;
And no one can strike against His hand
Or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’
VonBonfire
Well-known member
Yeah like I've said ten times, the reformed protestant position of once saved always saved is one that leads me to conclude that attending a reformed protestant church is completely unnecessary since I am either saved or not, and have no real decision in the matter.
MontiCristo
Well-known member
foolishness friend, the truly grateful understand the call to worship God. Seems to me that you don't rightly understand that God ordains the means as well as the end. It might benefit you to study the differences between God's will of decree and His will of command (prescriptive will).
For example, it's clear that Jesus knew that Judas was going to betray Him & it was God's will that Judas fill that role. So are we to believe and is it your contention that Judas is no longer required to obey God's commands? Does not God's prescriptive will apply to him?
18I do not speak about all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats My bread has lifted up his heel against Me.’ 19From now on I am telling you before it occurs, so that when it does occur, you may believe that I am He. 20Truly, truly, I say to you, he who receives anyone I send receives Me; and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.”
21When Jesus had said these things, He became troubled in spirit, and bore witness and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, that one of you will betray Me.”
MontiCristo
Well-known member
the only person who would hold the opinion you are positing is a person who believe that going to church saves you = works.
The bible is clear that it is Faith that unites us to Christ, not Church attendance. Such thinking is Pharisaical.
VonBonfire
Well-known member
You claim once saved always saved theology, and that God chooses who he will save, not us. Therefore if such is the case then it doesn't really matter whether I am prostrated on my face in repentance 24/7 or jumping around drunk in a mud puddle because it's in God's hands, not ours. There is no other conclusion that can be drawn from your viewpoint.
It's my contention that by your theology, it doesn't matter what Judas does cause he wasn't going to be saved anyways. "He was never a real christian" as thumbpicker would say. Yet he walked with Christ, an apparent contradiction. Christ's foreknowledge does not eliminate Judas' free will in deciding to steal money from the ministry.
MontiCristo
Well-known member
I don't claim anything. The very term "saved" is a past tense verb and participle. I'm teaching you what the bible says. Jesus said none will be snatched from His hands. Are you saying He was a liar? Was Judas snatched from His hand and He could do nothing about it?
BTW, only one can say "Jesus is Lord in the Holy Spirit" not natural man and certainly not a man used by Satan to accomplish God's will (Judas).
by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. 1Corinthians 12:3
So based on Christ's words above, are you still holding the position that Judas was a Christian?
Him having "walked with God" means nothing of the disposition and inner working of His heart. In the end, it's clear He was not a true believer.
. 19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they were of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be manifested that they all are not of us. 1 John 2:19
MontiCristo
Well-known member
With regard to "once saved always saved" / "perseverance of the Saints". - Notice how I use the word "saints" there to describe those who believe in Christ, not some "elite" group of people the way Catholics or Orthodox folks do. Why do I call us saints? Because the bible Does. Phil 1:1-2
I can provide tons more biblical references to this upon request if needed.
1Paul and Timothy, slaves of Christ Jesus,
To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the overseers and deacons: 2Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Only an individual with anthropocentric theology would imply that salvation can be lost. If that were the case, as someone made clear above, everyone one of us would be constantly losing our salvation and regaining it every second of every day. It's a ridiculous concept.
Salvation is of the LORD! It is a finished work and cannot be undone by the gates or powers of hell, and certainly not by the arbitrary, whimsical behaviors of mortal men. Anyone implying otherwise does not understand what propitiatory work is and negates the work of Jesus Christ on the cross.
I can provide tons more biblical references to this upon request if needed.
1Paul and Timothy, slaves of Christ Jesus,
To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the overseers and deacons: 2Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Only an individual with anthropocentric theology would imply that salvation can be lost. If that were the case, as someone made clear above, everyone one of us would be constantly losing our salvation and regaining it every second of every day. It's a ridiculous concept.
Salvation is of the LORD! It is a finished work and cannot be undone by the gates or powers of hell, and certainly not by the arbitrary, whimsical behaviors of mortal men. Anyone implying otherwise does not understand what propitiatory work is and negates the work of Jesus Christ on the cross.