Sell your mark IIC+: the black album was a mark 3.

[JimAnsell]

having owned at least half of dozen of all of these amps in question... you guys need to play more, and split hairs about tone less. its an endless chase your never going to be happy with. seek professional help about your ocd now.
as far as the market:
back in the day mark III's and 5150s were roughly the same prices. Then that horseshit, generic, swedish metal riff stolen, metal core take over of america in the mid 00's happend, and that drove 5150s up from 400-500 a piece to 700-800 a piece. mark IIIs were 700-900 depending on the configuration. people didn't know how bad ass the mark IIIs were because no one famous flew the mark III flag. then us fourmites, and you tubers wanted to let everyone know how the mark III's are classics in their own right, and they are... but now the'yre 1600-2200 (sold listings), so maybe our community fucked ourselves. who knows.

 

[anomaly]

For the black album you mean? I guess he’s referring to the Marshall G12 Vintage speakers as V30’s.

Are they not Marshall's version of the V30's?? They sound damn close to V30's to me.

 

[NineShallDie]

Are they not Marshall's version of the V30's?? They sound damn close to V30's to me.

Yeah they are the first version of the V30’s, first came out in 85-86 sometime I believe.

 

[anomaly]

Finding a C+ is an adventure alone, playing one is akin to harnessing a Unicorn. Not easily ridden, not easy to conquer or wrangle and hide behind at all. You’ll be out front and EVERY arrow you sling WILL be heard, and felt. Whether they hit the mark or not depends on you as the player.
Hence the “Mark” series name, to me anyways.

I feel of the 15+ amps I own, the C+ makes me a better player and music creator. That’s all I ask from my gear. Straight in, no boosts, help me create and become a better player. The C+ does that for me. Direct connection to “it”.

Better than any of the others I’ve played.
It has the perfect amount of “dry toast” in all the areas needed and “all the buttery goodness” in every area possible. Perfeccccc… and perfectly tweakable in every guitar specific category I previously didn’t know existed. LITERALLY an eye opening experience.
Magic. Big Magic. Can’t get it elsewhere, not even the JP or Mark5 (their own things until and unless cranked pert loud! But they will get there!) Allowing for modern tolerances and non vintage aging of course, the M5 and JP are the best iterations of the C+ Circuit.. why support and buy some knockoff brand?

My 5150 makes me smile, but the “alive” connection isn’t there. Hell, it’s been recorded so much in history it’s almost an uninspiring “anyone can have this” tone why even bother? Same w my Marshall 410/jcm800 cab brit 75/100 setup? Everyone can have those tones. Help ya self. Keep em. I’ve got one of “the ones” and it simply delivers.

Yes, I agree. I hear Mark3 high end in AJFA. Always have. Always will. I’d guess Red stripe or that studio pre is close in voicing but i have yet to studio pre under fingers and mic. So I’m guessin red stripey!

For writing and creating because it’s such an open channel to “that feel thing” and is just undeniable: the C+ is go to.

I prefer the new tech targeted to old power, and sometimes the other way around.
The Mark4 and 5 power sections are amazing to send signal into and mess with!

The only song on AJFA that I may be hearing a III is "the shortest straw". There's a different, more gritty, or shittier (lol) texture to the gain going on in that song. I believe it's the III channel on a Quad or a Studio pre-amp. That's my guess. James Hetfield or Flemming have never mentioned using a Mark III ever.

I've owned a Mark III red stripe and it never really did the AJFA thing at all, too dark and muffled sounding. and when you brought up the treble or presence to get rid of it, it just ended up sounding too hairy. To be honest it was a dated sounding amplifier and i think it and the blue stripe were made to target the hair metal crowd. They're not timeless sounding like the IIC+.

 

[anomaly]

Sorry bro, but you are making ALOT of assumptions here… a lot.


1. I can tell you a 2C+ Was sitting in the studio of one of the best metal producers for the last 20 years…. Didn’t get turned on once, nor was it even thought about.


2. It has nothing to do with availability, trust me. If it was the best, I can promise you it would be in ATLEAST ONE of the biggest guys in the games studio.

3. A producer/engineer worth his salt is going to use the best equipment to get the best tones and sounds for the and they are producing. A producer “not liking the tone but the band does” is just a ridiculous scenario… who would go back to that guy? “ yea we really liked the tones and the mixes on OUR record, but since the producer didn’t, we changed it to what he liked”….. said no one ever.

4. 5150s first became popular in modern metal in Europe in the early 90s. They didn’t get popular (for the most part) in the US for modern metal until Atleast a decade later. They were definitely not “cheap and plentiful” in Europe in 1993-1994.



5. Why do you people care about this useless in the room tone so much? Never once in any of my rants did I mention anything about “ in the room”… I couldn’t care less, and neither do these bands SINCE THEY ARE RECORDING.


6: I have never, once in my life ever heard anyone say a 5150 sounds “best above 5” on the volume knob… ever. Eddie ran his at less than 3. The highest I know FOR A FACT that anyone at audiohammer or sneaps studio ever had the volume on a 5150 for recording was maybe MAYBE 3.5. They fall apart above that. Usually at 3 and lower.


7: what do you use base what amps you want to buy then? When you first started playing, did you just… decide you were gonna buy an amp, NOT based on anything else? And yes, im
Sorry but once again, there is a reason why that thing is not used and never has been for modern metal tones. and it has nothing at all to do with the many assumptions made in this thread, I can assure you of that.



And ya, your vintage Marshalls do shit over many many amps, do you not agree with that ? I know I do. But, does that mean they are amazing modern metal amps? Do people swear they are the best amps for modern metal tones? No, they don’t. But for what it is, it’s amazing. There is no disputing that, or no one having imaginary thoughts that that amp is capable of the best modern metal tones by itself.

You gotta understand something. Andy Sneap is what is wrong with modern metal. Everything the guy does sounds generic, so there's no question why the guy's number one go to amp is the 5150.

 

[Techdeth]

The only song on AJFA that I may be hearing a III is "the shortest straw". There's a different, more gritty, or shittier (lol) texture to the gain going on in that song. I believe it's the III channel on a Quad or a Studio pre-amp. That's my guess. James Hetfield or Flemming have never mentioned using a Mark III ever.

I've owned a Mark III red stripe and it never really did the AJFA thing at all, too dark and muffled sounding. and when you brought up the treble or presence to get rid of it, it just ended up sounding too hairy. To be honest it was a dated sounding amplifier and i think it and the blue stripe were made to target the hair metal crowd. They're not timeless sounding like the IIC+.

My 3++ does AJFA really good . I like it better than my 2c+ . But then again I’ve never tried a 2c++ and that’s what I’d love to compare next. Wish I’d kept the 2c+ though lol

 

[anomaly]

The hard truth about Mesas is this: they will get stomped out of the yard vs a Marshall or Marshall clone. It’s all about the mids. Even a Triple Recto still doesn’t quite have the same upper mid ability as a Marshall or similar. Just the way it is. That Crate had more of those I’m guessing.
In a 1 guitar band or a 2 guitar setup with all Mesa, you are fine.

I played in a cover band with a Mark III and a IV and I never once had a problem finding good live settings vs the other players Marshall TSL and DSL heads. Mind you he filled a different sonic space, but we were both heard very well and I was the one who got the tone compliments too, so I call user error when people say Marshall's shit all over Mesa's live. You gotta use the 750 and 2200 sliders together, and your gain structure cannot be super smooth or over saturated or it'll just blend into the background. A v30 loaded cab is a must too as the cab and speakers make the biggest difference. I actually think Mesa's and Marshall's sound quite huge together.

 

[Racerxrated]

I played in a cover band with a Mark III and a IV and I never once had a problem finding good live settings vs the other players Marshall TSL and DSL heads. Mind you he filled a different sonic space, but we were both heard very well and I was the one who got the tone compliments too, so I call user error when people say Marshall's shit all over Mesa's live. You gotta use the 750 and 2200 sliders together, and your gain structure cannot be super smooth or over saturated or it'll just blend into the background. A v30 loaded cab is a must too as the cab and speakers make the biggest difference. I actually think Mesa's and Marshall's sound quite huge together.

Mesas sound killer; it’s not a matter of the tone quality it’s simply where the eqs sit. I had my C+ Coli, ran an ABY with my 72. I Dime the presence in the C+, treble pulled/dimed, vol 1 pulled dimed. EQ in a V; 2200 is maxed and 750 at 80% and the only part of the Coli I heard were the lows. The SuperTrem buried the Coliseum.
YMMV

 

[Rocket Sauce]

Wow...what a thread. That said, anyone wanna buy a Pre-TBA Mark III for 5K? No? Damn....

 

[anomaly]

Mesas sound killer; it’s not a matter of the tone quality it’s simply where the eqs sit. I had my C+ Coli, ran an ABY with my 72. I Dime the presence in the C+, treble pulled/dimed, vol 1 pulled dimed. EQ in a V; 2200 is maxed and 750 at 80% and the only part of the Coli I heard were the lows. The SuperTrem buried the Coliseum.
YMMV

You said your treble was dimed... maybe your tone was just overly saturated compared to the supertrem (aren't supertrem's plexi style amps)? too much saturation (and too much low end) can bury the pitch of the notes being played. I know for a fact that a supertrem is a much cleaner sounding amp than any Mark is, it's like comparing a distorted tone to a clean or crunch tone, and in that situation which is gonna be heard better? of course the clean tone is cause you can hear the fundamental notes better, it's not buried in a bunch of gain. Also you had your boogie with your 750 at 80% and your 2200 maxed (ouch, i'm trying to imagine a 180 watt car horn, lol). It's hard for me to believe you could tolerate settings like that. Maybe try cutting through a bit with low mids perhaps? or maybe try it with the graphic EQ off. All that said those two amps are much too different to be compared, one's basically a early modern high gainer and the other is basically a plexi, so you can't get more different than that.

Anyways, what I meant to say in my other post is there's no reason you can't make a Marshall and a Boogie work together, I have done it many times in bands before. They occupy different frequencies so there are gonna be pockets you can fill with each amp... mainly upper mids with the marshall and some treble and everything below that with the boogie, plus the Boogie's presence frequencies should probably cut through as well. Also, there's that ever important master volume control. One might need to be a bit louder than the other to get a good balance. I've also made shitty solid state amps cut against much better tube amplifiers... you gotta work together in a two guitarist band, and...

When it comes right down to it, it's the cab and speakers that play the biggest role in cutting through the mix. Some cabs are very directional, and some fill the room better, like straight vs slant vs open back cabs. I've had times where I thought I wasn't cutting through only to realize that I just wasn't in a good part of the room to hear myself... Recto straight cabs are very directional so you gotta be right in front of them to hear yourself properly sometimes.

 

[gtrwun]

Good lord, can we let this die?????

At least edit your thoughts to a short book. Nobody reads anything past the first paragraph.

Who is the genius that bumped this from the grave?

Yeah I know, just don’t click on it, right?

 

[VESmedic]

You gotta understand something. Andy Sneap is what is wrong with modern metal. Everything the guy does sounds generic, so there's no question why the guy's number one go to amp is the 5150.

……… Never once did I mention sneap in that post. Where, in any of that, did I mention sneap? There are more “modern” producers than Andy sneap dude. And I hate to break it to ya, but OG 5150s aren’t used nearly as much as you’d think in the last 10 years or so.

 

[ultimatemetalguitartones]

The only song on AJFA that I may be hearing a III is "the shortest straw". There's a different, more gritty, or shittier (lol) texture to the gain going on in that song. I believe it's the III channel on a Quad or a Studio pre-amp. That's my guess. James Hetfield or Flemming have never mentioned using a Mark III ever.

I've owned a Mark III red stripe and it never really did the AJFA thing at all, too dark and muffled sounding. and when you brought up the treble or presence to get rid of it, it just ended up sounding too hairy. To be honest it was a dated sounding amplifier and i think it and the blue stripe were made to target the hair metal crowd. They're not timeless sounding like the IIC+.

U got that right... The Shortest Straw is indeed a mesa boogie quad + strategy 400

 

[Techdeth]

U got that right... The Shortest Straw is indeed a mesa boogie quad + strategy 400

My 3++ Green Stripe sounds so close straight in . With all 6l6s in it .

 

[Beyond Black]

“I’m going to sell my C+ because producers don’t use them for modern metal” said no one ever.
I couldn’t possibly give any less fucks, nor am I the least bit surprised that producers don’t use an extremely rare 38 year old amp for modern metal recordings…
Metallica and Petrucci have already proven what these amps are capable of, so any producer that couldn’t coax killer recorded tones from a C+ isn’t very good at their job.

 

[JackBootedThug]

I played in a cover band with a Mark III and a IV and I never once had a problem finding good live settings vs the other players Marshall TSL and DSL heads. Mind you he filled a different sonic space, but we were both heard very well and I was the one who got the tone compliments too, so I call user error when people say Marshall's shit all over Mesa's live. You gotta use the 750 and 2200 sliders together, and your gain structure cannot be super smooth or over saturated or it'll just blend into the background. A v30 loaded cab is a must too as the cab and speakers make the biggest difference. I actually think Mesa's and Marshall's sound quite huge together.

like pb&j homie. my greatest tonez was a tverb and zw halfstack in stereo. more death than a graveyard homie. edit-why do I keep calling you homie? I'm feeling extra retarded today...

 

[thegame]

OP, while I and presumably we as a whole, appreciate the clips and recording details you often share, you've got to tone it down with the whole "if it's not widely used in modern metal circles then its practically useless garbage" rhetoric. I don't think the majority here view modern metal (say, post 2000) production as their personal pinnacle of sonic excellence. I'm dying to know, what are your top 3 modern metal productions and/or guitar tones? Let's establish a reference point. If you're merely going to list something with typewriter kicks, gridlocked performances and heavily gated guitar tracks, well maybe just don't lol.

Now, before you retort with, "I never said this or that", well you've been heavily inferring this basic view of modern metal production as being some type of gold standard that justifiably eschews otherwise highly regarded amps as lesser than and over hyped, simply by exclusion. Most of the artists in this genre have limited financial resources so they play what they can get their hands on. And a significant number probably aren't even gear heads enough to bother going on forums and finding out about boutique or rare stuff. There's no way in hell that for every 5150 used in a modern metal recording, that if a C+ was also available, the ratio would remain the same regarding what ended up being used. If that was the case, wouldn't your Morin modded Marshall have even less pedigree than a C+? At least the C+ has Master of Puppets to it's credit as a famous example of coveted tone.

Rant over. Now have yourself a sunshiny filled day.

 

[Meeotch]

OP, while I and presumably we as a whole, appreciate the clips and recording details you often share, you've got to tone it down with the whole "if it's not widely used in modern metal circles then its practically useless garbage" rhetoric. I don't think the majority here view modern metal (say, post 2000) production as their personal pinnacle of sonic excellence. I'm dying to know, what are your top 3 modern metal productions and/or guitar tones? Let's establish a reference point. If you're merely going to list something with typewriter kicks, gridlocked performances and heavily gated guitar tracks, well maybe just don't lol.

Now, before you retort with, "I never said this or that", well you've been heavily inferring this basic view of modern metal production as being some type of gold standard that justifiably eschews otherwise highly regarded amps as lesser than and over hyped, simply by exclusion. Most of the artists in this genre have limited financial resources so they play what they can get their hands on. And a significant number probably aren't even gear heads enough to bother going on forums and finding out about boutique or rare stuff. There's no way in hell that for every 5150 used in a modern metal recording, that if a C+ was also available, the ratio would remain the same regarding what ended up being used. If that was the case, wouldn't your Morin modded Marshall have even less pedigree than a C+? At least the C+ has Master of Puppets to it's credit as a famous example of coveted tone.

Rant over. Now have yourself a sunshiny filled day.

This needed to be said, thanks. The holier than thou attitude is getting fucking old. I'm expecting some kind of defensive retort stating why we all continue to be WRONG about everything. Well I hope I'm wrong about that but not holding my breath.

 

[VESmedic]

OP, while I and presumably we as a whole, appreciate the clips and recording details you often share, you've got to tone it down with the whole "if it's not widely used in modern metal circles then its practically useless garbage" rhetoric. I don't think the majority here view modern metal (say, post 2000) production as their personal pinnacle of sonic excellence. I'm dying to know, what are your top 3 modern metal productions and/or guitar tones? Let's establish a reference point. If you're merely going to list something with typewriter kicks, gridlocked performances and heavily gated guitar tracks, well maybe just don't lol.

Now, before you retort with, "I never said this or that", well you've been heavily inferring this basic view of modern metal production as being some type of gold standard that justifiably eschews otherwise highly regarded amps as lesser than and over hyped, simply by exclusion. Most of the artists in this genre have limited financial resources so they play what they can get their hands on. And a significant number probably aren't even gear heads enough to bother going on forums and finding out about boutique or rare stuff. There's no way in hell that for every 5150 used in a modern metal recording, that if a C+ was also available, the ratio would remain the same regarding what ended up being used. If that was the case, wouldn't your Morin modded Marshall have even less pedigree than a C+? At least the C+ has Master of Puppets to it's credit as a famous example of coveted tone.

Rant over. Now have yourself a sunshiny filled day.

OP, while I and presumably we as a whole, appreciate the clips and recording details you often share, you've got to tone it down with the whole "if it's not widely used in modern metal circles then its practically useless garbage" rhetoric. I don't think the majority here view modern metal (say, post 2000) production as their personal pinnacle of sonic excellence. I'm dying to know, what are your top 3 modern metal productions and/or guitar tones? Let's establish a reference point. If you're merely going to list something with typewriter kicks, gridlocked performances and heavily gated guitar tracks, well maybe just don't lol.

Now, before you retort with, "I never said this or that", well you've been heavily inferring this basic view of modern metal production as being some type of gold standard that justifiably eschews otherwise highly regarded amps as lesser than and over hyped, simply by exclusion. Most of the artists in this genre have limited financial resources so they play what they can get their hands on. And a significant number probably aren't even gear heads enough to bother going on forums and finding out about boutique or rare stuff. There's no way in hell that for every 5150 used in a modern metal recording, that if a C+ was also available, the ratio would remain the same regarding what ended up being used. If that was the case, wouldn't your Morin modded Marshall have even less pedigree than a C+? At least the C+ has Master of Puppets to it's credit as a famous example of coveted tone.

Rant over. Now have yourself a sunshiny filled day.

Well since you all intended to make this otherwise tongue in cheek thread from 7 months ago a thing and won’t let it die, I’ll play….


If you expect me not to say “ well I didn’t say that”, then tone it down with the hyperbole on an other wise harmless fun thread, until recently. I didn’t say the amp was garbage, for the last time. I stand by the fact it’s completely overhyped, and there isn’t anything anyone in this thread that is going to change my opinion on that. And guess what? That’s ok, it’s my opinion. You are entitled to yours 100 percent as well! I simply just give reasons I feel a certain way about something, instead of just saying like many do “ xyz amp sucks”, or “ABC amp sounds killer!”. If someone gives me their opinion on something, I’m all ears and love to hear different peoples opinions, that’s what this whole forum is about after all. Don’t like my opinion? Don’t read the thread, or don’t bump a dead thread from 7 months ago, there’s a thought. I realize this wasn’t you, but it obviously needs to be said.


I’m well aware many don’t consider the last 20 years the pinnacle of modern metal production, and guess what; NEITHER DO I. I’m just pointing out all the people all over the internet who swear this is the greatest amp ever for modern metal, yet no one uses it for modern metal. I’m sorry but it’s just a fact. You all can come up with all the reasons in the world why you think it’s not used ( money, lack of caring to find, availability, whatever), but the reality is, if it was that great for that genre of music, it would be used. You think a 2c+ is hard to find? Why do people fly all over the world to go to certain studios, or use certain pieces of gear etc? People will do that, but they won’t fork out 5-7k for the greatest amp ever? Ok…. Sure. If it’s a money thing, why aren’t these bands all playing crates? Just about every decently successful metal band is touring with Atleast 5-10k worth of gear, or owns as much etc.


As far as my morin Marshall: mike morins amps have been on vastly more records than just about anyone in the “modded Marshall” game( Dave Friedman, suhr, Rivera etc) I’m sure you won’t believe that either, but it’s also a fact. But then again, I don’t care in the least if people love it, use it, or don’t. I love it, regardless of who has or hasn’t used it, just like you all with 2C+’s are and should be. Pedigree or lack there of is of no influence on me. I mean,judging by this thread, I’m the antithesis of it. I use what sounds great to me, and I don’t justify my purchases like many have and do, myself included. If you poked fun at me for it and said “well, no one used them!”… well, that is just completely untrue, unlike the mark 2C+

I didn’t bump this thread from the grave, let it die if it gets all of your panties in a bunch.

 

[VESmedic]

This needed to be said, thanks. The holier than thou attitude is getting fucking old. I'm expecting some kind of defensive retort stating why we all continue to be WRONG about everything. Well I hope I'm wrong about that but not holding my breath.

None of you are wrong, we all have opinions. Me saying An amp sucks for a certain type of music doesn’t make me holier than thou, or anyone for that matter. I know, call me crazy. After all, I am in the minority in this thread, yet you’re still upset I don’t feel the same way. I’d say that’s a you problem, not me personally.