RaceU4her
Well-known member
I’ll do some drop A and B clips with my iic+ soon, been playing in standard and D for too long now
Achilles
Active member
IIC+ is a very unique amp it seems and has its own unique sound character. Same goes for other amps as well. It's not the only amp on the planet.
I personally don't like the Mark sound just by itself. I find it dated and uninspiring. If someone loves this particular sound, there's nothing wrong with that. If he's hell bent / fanatic for it, that's another story.
It is common sense that you won't buy a IIC+ to play downtuned riffs. There are Engl, Diesel, Fryette, Wizard, EVH 5153 and others that can do modern sounds.
A modern metal guitarist who plays lots of stuff, likes the Mark sound and wants to record a new metal album, won't use a mesa mark amp by itself (unless he's promoting it), but in conjunction with another amp. That is, in order to combine the character, feel and attack of say, a IIC+ (if he fancy that) with the sonic character of another amp and create his own sound.
Didn't Hetfield do just that, using a Mark together with Marshalls (+ outboard parametric EQ), and afterwards in conjunction with Rectos, Wizards or Diezels to modernize his own sound?
Who gives a fuck what this guy used to record a specific album? He used what was modern/new at the time and fullfiled his sonic requirements in order to express what was in his heart.
What are you guys arguing about?
All the gear we use is just tools to get the job done. Nothing more. Paying so much money for an amp is ridiculous.
I personally don't like the Mark sound just by itself. I find it dated and uninspiring. If someone loves this particular sound, there's nothing wrong with that. If he's hell bent / fanatic for it, that's another story.
It is common sense that you won't buy a IIC+ to play downtuned riffs. There are Engl, Diesel, Fryette, Wizard, EVH 5153 and others that can do modern sounds.
A modern metal guitarist who plays lots of stuff, likes the Mark sound and wants to record a new metal album, won't use a mesa mark amp by itself (unless he's promoting it), but in conjunction with another amp. That is, in order to combine the character, feel and attack of say, a IIC+ (if he fancy that) with the sonic character of another amp and create his own sound.
Didn't Hetfield do just that, using a Mark together with Marshalls (+ outboard parametric EQ), and afterwards in conjunction with Rectos, Wizards or Diezels to modernize his own sound?
Who gives a fuck what this guy used to record a specific album? He used what was modern/new at the time and fullfiled his sonic requirements in order to express what was in his heart.
What are you guys arguing about?
All the gear we use is just tools to get the job done. Nothing more. Paying so much money for an amp is ridiculous.
anomaly
Well-known member
You'd be surprised to find out how many pro players use or use models of the IIC+ in the studio. There are plenty of professional musicians still using those Mark tones, they're just not nearly as common or as popular as the rectifier series cause they sound more unique and different compared to the more standard sound of a rectifier. Also, Recto's and 5150's are EVERYWHERE. No studio that records metal bands doesn't have one or the other, but Mark's are much harder to find. The IIC+ is a very rare amp and not many studio's have them, thus they aren't on as many recordings as the recto's, 5150's...Well since you all intended to make this otherwise tongue in cheek thread from 7 months ago a thing and won’t let it die, I’ll play….
If you expect me not to say “ well I didn’t say that”, then tone it down with the hyperbole on an other wise harmless fun thread, until recently. I didn’t say the amp was garbage, for the last time. I stand by the fact it’s completely overhyped, and there isn’t anything anyone in this thread that is going to change my opinion on that. And guess what? That’s ok, it’s my opinion. You are entitled to yours 100 percent as well! I simply just give reasons I feel a certain way about something, instead of just saying like many do “ xyz amp sucks”, or “ABC amp sounds killer!”. If someone gives me their opinion on something, I’m all ears and love to hear different peoples opinions, that’s what this whole forum is about after all. Don’t like my opinion? Don’t read the thread, or don’t bump a dead thread from 7 months ago, there’s a thought. I realize this wasn’t you, but it obviously needs to be said.
I’m well aware many don’t consider the last 20 years the pinnacle of modern metal production, and guess what; NEITHER DO I. I’m just pointing out all the people all over the internet who swear this is the greatest amp ever for modern metal, yet no one uses it for modern metal. I’m sorry but it’s just a fact. You all can come up with all the reasons in the world why you think it’s not used ( money, lack of caring to find, availability, whatever), but the reality is, if it was that great for that genre of music, it would be used. You think a 2c+ is hard to find? Why do people fly all over the world to go to certain studios, or use certain pieces of gear etc? People will do that, but they won’t fork out 5-7k for the greatest amp ever? Ok…. Sure. If it’s a money thing, why aren’t these bands all playing crates? Just about every decently successful metal band is touring with Atleast 5-10k worth of gear, or owns as much etc.
As far as my morin Marshall: mike morins amps have been on vastly more records than just about anyone in the “modded Marshall” game( Dave Friedman, suhr, Rivera etc) I’m sure you won’t believe that either, but it’s also a fact. But then again, I don’t care in the least if people love it, use it, or don’t. I love it, regardless of who has or hasn’t used it, just like you all with 2C+’s are and should be. Pedigree or lack there of is of no influence on me. I mean,judging by this thread, I’m the antithesis of it. I use what sounds great to me, and I don’t justify my purchases like many have and do, myself included. If you poked fun at me for it and said “well, no one used them!”… well, that is just completely untrue, unlike the mark 2C+
I didn’t bump this thread from the grave, let it die if it gets all of your panties in a bunch.
When you hear an interview in Guitar World about what gear a band uses, more often than not they'll just say what they are endorsed by, not by what was actually used to record the album, which in most cases is multiple amplifiers. Also, you know that ton's of re-amping goes on these days to give the mixer more tonal options.
One last thing about the Mark series... they are a bitch to dial in and not a lot of people have the patience to fuck around with these types of amplifiers to find the tone they want. Most of the time, its the plug n play style amps that get used. Instant gratification.
anomaly
Well-known member
A Mark IV can actually sound quite modern. They can sound as modern as almost any amp on the market right now IMO. You just gotta have the right cab.
BSRIAudio
Active member
"Modern" is a nebulous term that has changed meaning in the last 5 or so years. Lamb of God would absolutely be described as a modern metal band by most players and their tones were all MKIV for years but now 'modern' primarily means plug-in or modeler tones that have extreme gating/unnatural EQ/large amounts of post-processing. Its become more about editing tracks than the tone of the tracks.
V
VESmedic
Well-known member
Whatever you wanna tell yourself about why they aren’t used more. The assumptions some of you make with literally nothing to back it up is amazing to say the least. But like I said, you are obviously free to think what you want!
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VESmedic
Well-known member
I love the “too much time” aspect… this just goes to show you how much some of you don’t know about making a record, and that’s all well and fine, as long as you don’t make assumptions about why amps are used or not used in a studio…case in point…
A Friend of mine tracked a pretty large metal record from last year, one of many. He went through 50 speakers… yes, 50. And to make it even more crazy, 50 different Marshall vintage speakers, aka ALL the same speaker…50…to get the best tone he could for that record…
But you’re right… I’m sure people aren’t using 2C+’s because they take longer to dial in than micing up 50 different speakers….. try again.
A Friend of mine tracked a pretty large metal record from last year, one of many. He went through 50 speakers… yes, 50. And to make it even more crazy, 50 different Marshall vintage speakers, aka ALL the same speaker…50…to get the best tone he could for that record…
But you’re right… I’m sure people aren’t using 2C+’s because they take longer to dial in than micing up 50 different speakers….. try again.
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VESmedic
Well-known member
Solid point, I agree completely. I should say as far as myself and my opinions, I don’t mean the unnatural garbage at all personally. But I definitely agree that term has shifted into something else than what it meant 5-10 years ago
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ShakeRattleRoll
New member
I’ve hinted at this before on this forum, and I knew I wouldn’t get anywhere without some kind of proof. I’ve seen pictures but I can’t find them at the moment. For anyone that has the AJFA box set, apparently hetfield talks about this as well and confirms it as well. But from the man himself, bob rock. It was a mark 3. Go to the 1:57:00 mark. I realize some won’t believe this or it won’t matter at all, but I still think it’s interesting how this 10k dollar amp has taken on this mythical proportions that stems mostly from
This record, Atleast a huge proportion of it. I never thought the C+ sounded anything like the black album to me personally, but the mark 3 does, and for AJFA as well: which they used a BBE onenjoy.
I Know I am coming years late into this forum and specially into this thread.
But at the end of the day was it a Mark III Coliseum like mine used in the Black album or just a Mark III ?
Cheers
Tone Monster
Well-known member
Neither. VES and Bob are mistaken. It’ll get you close though.
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VESmedic
Well-known member
YEP…. Didn’t you guys know? The guy who recorded the most prolific and arguably greatest sounding heavy album in history….. is “mistaken”… and james too! Even when asked multiple times. Trust rig talkers, definitely not the guy who produced the album!
Tone Monster
Well-known member
We showed you all the evidence. No opinions. You’re like the Evangelical Christian who doesn’t believe in evolution yelling “show me the evidence!”, but won’t actually go to the museum and look at it.
Show me one pic of the III in the studio and I’ll shut up for good. Plenty of IIC++ and IV shots…AND it doesn’t matter very much at all. I had a red stripe III that killed for metal tones. Liked it more than a IIC+ for metal.
IIC+<III<IIC++
YMMV, IMO, FUGSABFBC, etc.
Bloodrock
Well-known member
Mesa? Pfft! Haven't you guys figured out that Mark 3 means a custom 3 gain stage added modded MARSHALL built by MARK CAMERON? There were no MESAS on those records! It was all custom modded Marshalls by MARK cameron. Why do you think the rarest Cameron mod is called the CCM??? It's the "CUSTOM CAMERON METALLICA" mod. Wow! I still cant believe you morons havent figured this out yet! LOL!
ZEN Amps
Well-known member
Wow bass on 10, 750Hz not scooped.
I would wager there is extreme external processing going on here to get the classic rhythm sound. This begs the question, if radical eq is being used then what does it really matter what Mk series amp was used? The final tone would be vastly different that what anyone else could ever achieve, even if they had an exact replica of this amp.
So go forth and get a MkIII, IV or V and work on your technique - we all know this is far more important than the gear in the end.
I would wager there is extreme external processing going on here to get the classic rhythm sound. This begs the question, if radical eq is being used then what does it really matter what Mk series amp was used? The final tone would be vastly different that what anyone else could ever achieve, even if they had an exact replica of this amp.
So go forth and get a MkIII, IV or V and work on your technique - we all know this is far more important than the gear in the end.
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VESmedic
Well-known member
Oh there was a ton of eq for sure, all pretty well documented. Aphex eq’s in the loop etc. but I’m not surprised by the 750 slider if that was in fact actual settings used during some tracking session( who really knows). The key to the Metallica sound frequency wise is not a cut in the “middy mids” around 600-750hz, it’s in a big cut around 1.2k, which is one of the things they did with the aphex eq. Not surprising to see the 2200hz slider down either, as this probably got decently close to 1.2k in reality, I have no idea what the Q values are on the Mesa mark amps.
If you listen to the isolated black album guitar tracks, especially on sad but true, there is not really a scoop in the 750hz range like I was saying, if you have a pretty good ear you’ll hear that it’s really around 1.2k or so. That’s the key to that sound.
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VESmedic
Well-known member
Evidence ? You want EVIDENCE?! THE GUY WHO PRODUCED THE FUCKING RECORD AND THE GUY WHO PLAYED ON IT SAID THESE EXACT VERY WORDS!?!? Those words literally came out of their faces, multiple times…. But i know, they were mistaken!
ZEN Amps
Well-known member
Yep with you on the 1.2k, I almost always cut heavily around there in a mix. I have found though that ducking 750Hz seems to help too. Shockingly Rock, Staub and Hetfield seem to be better at this than everyone else, so there's that to consider!
The bass on 10 is more of a surprise to be honest - the Shift must be disengaged surely.
RaceU4her
Well-known member
his settings look all over the place. heres one pic where bass is marked 5 and heres another where they are at 0 lol
Bloodrock
Well-known member
his settings look all over the place. heres one pic where bass is marked 5 and heres another where they are at 0 lol
All smoke and mirrors.... ot was all CAMERON MARSHALLS!
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Racerxrated
Well-known member
One thing to mention, about Mr Rock is he has been wrong about what he remembers when it comes to his records. WHAT???? You say?? Yes, when he had that Skype interview with Friedman on tone talk last year or whenever, he was asked about what speakers Sykes used on the 1987 album. He said V30s. Well, no V30 cabs existed in 1985/86 when they recorded it. The Marshall Vintage was first used in some 1x12 combos in 1986; but not in any 412s until the Jubilee cabs in 1987. Then continued in 88/89 in 800 cabs. So, unless you want to believe that someone bought 4 combos, and took the speakers out and loaded them up in a cab he's wrong about that memory. And, Sykes wasn't endorsed by Marshall at that time so I seriously doubt with all the other cabs he owned, plus probably getting his own C+ and III Coliseums + Mesa Cabs that he somehow thought he needed to pirate a bunch of 1X12 Marshall combos for their speakers.
Then, when you consider the 2C+ and III look practically identical in 99% to each other, it's pretty easy to see him getting confused.
Let's also not forget, that Metallica used the C+ exclusively through a Marshall power section for AJFA and MOP. So, saying that the C+ is barely used on ANY albums is pretty ludicrous when the biggest Metal band EVAR used it on 2 out of 3 of their biggest Albums, and in my and most others opinions yes it absolutely was used on the Black album so 3/3 albums. Along with a bunch of other amps.