The I chord in major...scale choices + substitutions.

  • Thread starter Thread starter degenaro
  • Start date Start date
Sub? What do you mean by that? I see the forms listed below so that's ok. "The scales are to play through the chord." What do you mean by that exactly? Chromatic passingtones? Key of C is fine (for me). I also understand the major scale minor the fourth and seventh, but for those who do not, you might want to expand on that.
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Sub, as in substitue...
Play through the chord. Which scale to use against which chord.

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Chubtone":dee36 said:
Thanks Ed! Very cool stuff! You have actually inspired me to check out some more complicated ideas than I have been looking at lately.

I have some pretty effective methods for teaching basic diatonic theory that some of the guys seem to be looking for in this thread. It was developed from trying to sneak theory in to students who were more interested in playing "Smells Like Teen Spirit"

When the theory forum gets going, maybe I can write this stuff up.

Questions for Ed,
1.) First of all, some of the chords you are spelling out have too many notes to be played by 4 fingers and/or don't lend themselves to being bar chords. Are there specific notes that you leave out of extended chords because they are less important in the chord? For example, drop the 5th or drop the 3rd because they are less important or because they are implied by the 7, 9, 11, 13 or whatever?

2) Second, you say the "Lydian stuff" would be subs for the IV chord. So in the above post, you are giving us concepts that some of the chords will work behind I - C Ionian and IV - C Lydian, some of the chord extensions will work with just I - C Ionian and some of them will work with just IV - C Lydian which is the IV in the key of G Major?

I haven't given much thought to the theory side of things in YEARS. Ed's got me interested again! Thanks :study:
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You answered #2 yourself.
As for #1...
The most obvious note to ditch first would be the 5th, then if you paly with a bass player you'd nix the root. As a rule you really only need two notes to imply a harmony, 3 will get you closer. And 4 is about the biggest I ever use. Also held true for Joe Pass.
 
bcfoxtransy":3abe8 said:
can you spell out the C lyd for me? i was taught that its the same just starting on the third (fourth?), but that just never seemed right to me. :?

i recognize most of it at least...
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C lyd...
C-D-E-F#-G-A-B
mode V of G major.
 
Randy Van Sykes":f95c5 said:
That's ALOT of information there for one lesson...but very cool and helpful stuff!

Just take it one line at a time...

Cmajor---c,e,g-------C major, C lydian (4th mode Gmajor)

Means when playing over a C major chord (which is based on C...E...G)
The scales that fit well over it are C major and C lydian.

Here's a very good site to help you see the scale on the fretboard...
http://jguitar.com/scale?root=C&scale=Lydian&fret=0&labels=none&notes=sharps

It would be good pratice for beginners to record yourself playing a C major chord for a few minutes with a click track, then play it back and alternate between the 2 scales (C major and C lydian) over top of it, so you can get a feel for how they work and why they work over a C major chord...training your ear is the most important thing as I musician IMO. It's cool to hear how moving one note in a scale (up or down) really alters the entire feel of what you are playing.

Then try moving on to the next line Ed posted...

C6------- c.e.g.a-----C maj, C lyd

...and so on. :)
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You're hired as side kick! :)
 
So what is the best progression to record the loops?

Should you let the chord ring for an entire count perhaps? I am thinking this would be best but if there is something better I would like to know.

Any volunteers is also welcome :)
 
Shiny_Surface":26685 said:
Ed, I posted this in the other thread but I'll post it here as well:

Is there a table or matrix of valid substitutions or are substitutions fluid depending on other factors?

Like you mentioned sub for I is the vi for instance....
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Absolutely...here ya go...in major:
tonic and its subs...
I(C)-iii(Em)-vi(Am)
subdominant and its sub
ii(Dm)-IV(F)
dominant and it sub
V(G) and vii7b5(Bm7b5)

And here's why...

If you harmonize the major scale...as in stack every other note on top of the preceding one you get your chords...
for the I you get c,e,g for the major triad.etc...
like this...
c-d-e-f-g-a-b...pick a note and then build the chord say G...
g,b,d or D...d,f,a
get it?
Now if you keep going with this...
take C...c-e-g-b
Now this are the notes of a C major 7 chord, however if you throw away the first note you get an Em triad...
the other way around...
build the A chord... a,c,e, add the next note a,c,e,g
drop the root and you get c.e.g a C major triad.
Makes sense?
 
Digital Jams":611d0 said:
So what is the best progression to record the loops?

Should you let the chord ring for an entire count perhaps? I am thinking this would be best but if there is something better I would like to know.

Any volunteers is also welcome :)
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For now that we're dealing with simply one chord I'd just swell into the chord so it's kinda keyboardy. I play tonight otherwise I'd take care of it tonight.
 
degenaro":c11aa said:
Absolutely...here ya go...in major:
tonic and its subs...
I(C)-iii(Em)-vi(Am)
subdominant and its sub
ii(Dm)-IV(F)
dominant and it sub
V(G) and vii7b5(Bm7b5)

And here's why...

If you harmonize the major scale...as in stack every other note on top of the preceding one you get your chords...
for the I you get c,e,g for the major triad.etc...
like this...
c-d-e-f-g-a-b...pick a note and then build the chord say G...
g,b,d or D...d,f,a
get it?
Now if you keep going with this...
take C...c-e-g-b
Now this are the notes of a C major 7 chord, however if you throw away the first note you get an Em triad...
the other way around...
build the A chord... a,c,e, add the next note a,c,e,g
drop the root and you get c.e.g a C major triad.
Makes sense?
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Yep! I was getting pretty close to this stuff but stopped taking lessons a few years ago when my teacher moved away.

I'm looking foward to a theory forum it will be very educational.
 
Digital Jams":b1709 said:
I am glad and sad you are here :) :cry:

Glad due to your skills and comp skills

Sad because during improv jams with what we have learned you are going to make me look really bad :x
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Marsha, Marsha, Marsha...

jan_brady.jpg




:D
 
This is a great thread idea Ed. Thank you very much EVERYONE for sharing and keeping this thread alive.

I took music theory courses in college and high school. Those courses were MUCH harder than any calculus or science course i took.
 
degenaro":c7607 said:
You're hired as side kick! :)
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I'm sure by lesson 2 I'll be looking for help...you are the theory ninja! :D

This is a great idea and I'll help if I can with improv and stuff...It's very cool of you to take the time to contribute Ed.
 
Randy Van Sykes":28b24 said:
I'm sure by lesson 2 I'll be looking for help...you are the theory ninja! :D

This is a great idea and I'll help if I can with improv and stuff...It's very cool of you to take the time to contribute Ed.
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Adam, can you bang out a quick loop for us to start with the first lesson??

Did I mention what a sexified man you are btw :)
 
Digital Jams":561a4 said:
Adam, can you bang out a quick loop for us to start with the first lesson??

Did I mention what a sexified man you are btw :)
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Actually got my laptop in the car...gimme 5...
 
degenaro":1f626 said:
I thought you had that reserved for Vai?!?!?! :)
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Naw, other than Astoria's Blue Powder Vai imo is not a sexy player.


Freaking Adam can peal pants off the ladies with his playing :)
 
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