Modelers suck

[DanTravis62]

I see what @DanTravis62 is getting at, that tube amps being abandoned will lead to stagnation as all modelers moving forward will be limited to emulating whatever static number of tube amps are left to copy.

I agree that modelers are work that way now, and that a future like that does look bleak.

However I think that's mostly a constraint of current market demands, not something that's inherent to the tech. Like what if people made modelers in the future that gave the user the ability to build their own virtual amps at the circuit level? What if you could literally draw out a schematic and place down virtual components and pots in a virtual circuit, and map them to physical knobs on the unit? Then as you change components, you could hear what they're doing in real time? What if you could do anything from modding existing amps all the way to building your own from scratch? I think that could facilitate a lot more innovation in the world of guitar amps than what we're seeing in the market now.

Like imagine if the ability to build an amplifier wasn't just limited to the people who have taken it upon themselves to buy all the tools necessary to do it, along with educating themselves enough not to kill themselves in the process? What if just anybody could dive right in and start putting together actual new designs without having to spend tens of thousands tooling up a shop, or invest in enough electrical engineering knowledge to not electrocute themselves, or incur the risk of producing a new design without knowing if it's going to be financially viable? What if you could just click around on a screen to see what you can come up with, with basically zero risk?

I guarantee amp design creativity would leap forward if you had more than, what, the couple dozen (at most) people in the entire world capable of actually producing new designs.

I guess what I'm saying is that modeling doesn't necessarily have to lead to a world where nothing new ever comes out.

As much as I wish your point was valid and a possible future, I don't think it is even in the realm of possibility

At least with analog gear

That's already basically the direction modelers are going, although the available features in that vein don't do it that well IME

The two notes wall of sound is basically different EQ filters to simulate 6l6 vs el34, etc, because that's what digital is programmed to do right now

I mean, listen to the "great tones" in popular media - you can't convince me Tammy Henson or the Periphery street shitter or YouTube Shill Number 83639-26 aren't widely lauded as Good Tone™ because of the creeping homogenization and unimaginative tone seeking modelers have contributed to

And I honestly don't think it's Kemper or Fractal or whoever's fault, and I honestly don't think they sound bad or are bad products

It's because they promote the most banal, unimaginative, boring tone-seeking from the popular guitarists that use them

 

[rsm]

I purchased 3-4 tube amps in 2023, sold a few modelers (kept my SY-1000, and got the Mooer Prime P1). Instead of modelers I'm using software plugins.

Two of my favorite plugins aren't modelers, they're digital signal processing for guitar. Of course the factory presets are named to reflect what they're supposed to sound like for marketing. But the software has editors that lets you focus on sculpting the sound to your liking.

With tools like this (Blue Cat Audio Destructor) you're not constrained by or building tones from digital models of tube amps.

Here's the Destructor Advanced Editor - of course you can use the Basic Editor which looks like an amp and you can use skins that make it look like different brands of amps.

In some ways, Destructor is like the pre-eq, distortion, post-eq tone shaping in my ISP Theta Pro, but has many more parameters including sources, wave shapes, phase shift. smoothing, etc.

The Destructor digital signal processing has pre-processing, Destructor and post processing. for the pre and post processing you can add effects, in this screen the pre processing has a gate and comp; the real processing is in the larger section: preamp, Destruction, and post-filter sections which comprise the Destructor; no post processing is shown:

Destructor is the example of the direction I'd like to see digital signal processing for guitar continue, not looking outside or backwards to existing analog gear.


IMO

 

[Co13manLantern]

Lol@8:30...btw he's a sick player too!!

Speaking of tube superiority, do you still have that Mezzabarba Nirvana pre for sale? I couldn’t message you on classifieds because I have less than 50 posts but I’m interested. Let me know, thanks!

 

[RevDrucifer]

All I care about is TONE. I can get nice tone out of my tube amps. I can get it out of my Axe III. Everything else in the discussion (for me anyway) is far less important (value, stage presentation, tradition, tinkering time needed to get tones, trends, feel, does it shake the wall pictures, blah, blah, etc, just gimmie the toanz to track with please).

The only negative thing I would agree with others about is, with the best modelers, it's kind of a cheat in that with the push of a button any joe 6 pack can have pretty badass record ready tones, even if he's never owned a nice amp or learned how to dial one in, where others spent many years learning the art of controlling/playing loud and more importantly (for some), mic'ing cabs (which I'm betting most of us older guys here HAVE). But still...in the end, if one simply wants great tone and doesn't care how he gets it, I totally understand, lots of options out there now.

While a part of me wants to knee-jerk to the idea that someone doesn’t have to go through the ‘work’ most of us went through learning how to put these rigs together/get the tones we were going for, this is absolutely where the end result is far more important to me than knowing someone went through a bunch of gear to get where they are.

IE-if some 18 year old kid released a killer album with killer tones, IDGAF how easily he got them if the music is killer. More power to him and it’s more good music and tones for everyone else. Ultimately, we’re just going for the tones in our heads and it’s generally a refinement as time goes on, I don’t believe that ‘more time figuring out your rig = better music”

 

[RevDrucifer]

Blah blah blah blah modeling is great now let me tell you about all the tube amps I bought.

Shake my head.

I’m aware your simple mind is incapable of doing anything but projecting, but I‘m not a “metal guitarist” or a “rock guitarist” or much of a ‘guitarist only’ at all, I’m a musician that loves playing music, regardless of the genre and I want ALL the tones because whatever tone works best for the song is the best tone and I don’t define myself by any of them. They’re one and done because they only wok within the confines of that particular song.

I don’t view different gear as things to shit on, they’re tools to get things I want to get done, done.

 

[VonBonfire]

I’m aware your simple mind is incapable of doing anything but projecting, but I‘m not a “metal guitarist” or a “rock guitarist” or much of a ‘guitarist only’ at all, I’m a musician that loves playing music, regardless of the genre and I want ALL the tones because whatever tone works best for the song is the best tone and I don’t define myself by any of them. They’re one and done because they only wok within the confines of that particular song.

I don’t view different gear as things to shit on, they’re tools to get things I want to get done, done.

You win big Rev. I am definitely a simple mind. I still mostly watch kid's movies and laugh at them but I do hate cartoons. I will always view modelers the same way I view a cheap chinese wrench set. Harbor Freight guitar tone. The sound of slave labor. I'm an entertainer first, musician second. And I only need a couple good tones, not all of them. But that's me. All your clips were heavy music clips IIRC so post up that smoking blues playing and blow my mind big dog since you are holding all the tones.

I definitely have a good time shitting on gear. I'm just not into shitting on a individual player's rig on a personal level so if I have done that here to someone my apologies but damn son please buy a decent amp.

 

[RevDrucifer]

You win big Rev. I am definitely a simple mind. I still mostly watch kid's movies and laugh at them but I do hate cartoons. I will always view modelers the same way I view a cheap chinese wrench set. Harbor Freight guitar tone. The sound of slave labor. I'm an entertainer first, musician second. And I only need a couple good tones, not all of them. But that's me. All your clips were heavy music clips IIRC so post up that smoking blues playing and blow my mind big dog since you are holding all the tones.

I definitely have a good time shitting on gear. I'm just not into shitting on a individual player's rig on a personal level so if I have done that here to someone my apologies but damn son please buy a decent amp.

Not sure I’d call any of it “smoking blues playing”, but it’s not metal-









This is about as bluesy as I care to get (this is the solo from the last track posted above, but the first time I improvised it, the final version just has a couple notes I changed) in all it’s shitty modeler tone glory. The Vibe is a Dry Bell, so maybe the vibe sounds good.



I know one thing, there’s both real amps and modelers in those at different points and no one here is going to be able to pick out which ones are which. And I’m quite aware my mixing skills aren’t at a professional level, that’s where my focus is these days. For the most part, these songs were just an idea that popped in my head that day and wrote themselves in 20-30 minutes, I just open a click track, record a scratch guitar track and build the rest of the song around it.

And where a modeler REALLY comes handy is that first song, “Lonely Ocean”, which outside of any double tracking and the programmed drums are improvised 1st takes, keys, acoustics, vocals, all of it. If I sat there dicking around with mic’ing a cab and focusing on one aspect of the big picture, that song wouldn’t exist and while you can say “Well it’s garbage anyway so who cares”, you’re personal enjoyment of my music is not why I write it.

 

[Crunchity]

Not sure I’d call any of it “smoking blues playing”, but it’s not metal-









and while you can say “Well it’s garbage anyway so who cares”, you’re personal enjoyment of my music is not why I write it.

I was going to say it wouldn't matter if or what you posted anyway, he'd still find fault with it because, god forbid, you use different gear choices than the chosen one...how dare you.

Sounds great btw - and reaffirms my earlier point if you can dial up tones and play, you can.....

 

[RevDrucifer]

I was going to say it wouldn't matter if or what you posted anyway, he'd still find fault with it because, god forbid, you use different gear choices than the chosen one...how dare you.

Sounds great btw - and reaffirms my earlier point if you can dial up tones and play, you can.....

Oh, I’m aware. But I’m not about to call someone out for not posting clips then not post them myself after prompted.

 

[DanTravis62]

Oh, I’m aware. But I’m not about to call someone out for not posting clips then not post them myself after prompted.

I have the opposite problem, i spent my first few years of RT spamming my clips, and half of the time no one listened or cared, so i just stopped lol

 

[thegame]

I have the opposite problem, i spent my first few years of RT spamming my clips, and half of the time no one listened or cared, so i just stopped lol

Trust me, we listened and liked it even if we didn’t comment. But on another note, if I had a nickel every time you used the word ‘banal’ I could buy the entire Tesla company and have enough leftover for Tiago’s amp collection.

 

[Crunchity]

I have the opposite problem, i spent my first few years of RT spamming my clips, and half of the time no one listened or cared, so i just stopped lol

I'm certain I've heard your clips and liked them.

Oh, I’m aware. But I’m not about to call someone out for not posting clips then not post them myself after prompted.

Hear ya...takes stones to back up the talk. Sweet strat tones in that last clip, great, seasoned vibrato too.

I'll never be mistaken for a bluesman either, tend to go for a bluesy mood more than traditional blues playing..

 

[RevDrucifer]

I have the opposite problem, i spent my first few years of RT spamming my clips, and half of the time no one listened or cared, so i just stopped lol

Hahahha that especially sucks when you’ve put a lot of effort into something and assume/think/hope people will respond with the same excitement. In the end, nothing really beats the excitement of being in the middle of writing/recording and discovering what’s coming next. If other people find some enjoyment in it, it’s a bonus.

More so than I want forum members to be excited about the music I write, I wish more would take note that everyone can be writing/recording music and instead of bitching about what’s “lacking” in the world, just write the shit you want to hear and do it yourself so you’re not reliant on other’s efforts for your entertainment/musical fulfillment.

That said, I don’t like everything I write, but I took Devin Townsend’s advice when he said “If you start writing something and think it sucks, how do you know it sucks if it’s not finished? Maybe you thinking it sucks is what it will take to finish the song in a way you dig”, sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn’t. It’s funny when those ones get more attention than the ones I really dig, though.

 

[Ben Waylin]

I have the opposite problem, i spent my first few years of RT spamming my clips, and half of the time no one listened or cared, so i just stopped lol

Your clip hosting site doesn't have a counter ?

 

[MadAsAHatter]

I hate when inspiration hits or you think of a cool riff in your head, but you're nowhere near a guitar. By the time you get to one to lay it down the moment's gone.

 

[RevDrucifer]

I hate when inspiration hits or you think of a cool riff in your head, but you're nowhere near a guitar. By the time you get to one to lay it down the moment's gone.

This is why I don’t mind being bitten by the Apple bug. I’ve got Garaband on my phone and iPad, I was in our chiller plant on Wednesday making adjustments, popped open Garageband to sing some out of key/horrible interpretation of riff idea into it, got home and Airdropped it to my iMac where I loaded it up right away in Logic.

I should post THAT shit for some laughs.

 

[VonBonfire]

Not sure I’d call any of it “smoking blues playing”, but it’s not metal-









This is about as bluesy as I care to get (this is the solo from the last track posted above, but the first time I improvised it, the final version just has a couple notes I changed) in all it’s shitty modeler tone glory. The Vibe is a Dry Bell, so maybe the vibe sounds good.



I know one thing, there’s both real amps and modelers in those at different points and no one here is going to be able to pick out which ones are which. And I’m quite aware my mixing skills aren’t at a professional level, that’s where my focus is these days. For the most part, these songs were just an idea that popped in my head that day and wrote themselves in 20-30 minutes, I just open a click track, record a scratch guitar track and build the rest of the song around it.

And where a modeler REALLY comes handy is that first song, “Lonely Ocean”, which outside of any double tracking and the programmed drums are improvised 1st takes, keys, acoustics, vocals, all of it. If I sat there dicking around with mic’ing a cab and focusing on one aspect of the big picture, that song wouldn’t exist and while you can say “Well it’s garbage anyway so who cares”, you’re personal enjoyment of my music is not why I write it.

I like "To the Water" the best, that had a great vibe to it and drew me in. "You don't know music" was cool but I felt cheated because there was no vocal.

Mixing is my least favorite part of music making so don't feel bad. I make my drummer generate rough mixes because he loves it and then I provide any further input. I can't stand to listen to stuff over and over when I've already done that while writing it.

I didn't care for the strat tone much on straturday night. Your licks and feeling on it were nice though. I hate strats so if you make a strats rule thread I might be in there raising some hell. Maybe I'm just jealous cause you can make one of those torture devices work and I can't, lol.

I was going to say it wouldn't matter if or what you posted anyway, he'd still find fault with it because, god forbid, you use different gear choices than the chosen one...how dare you.

Thanks for the vote of confidence boss, you're all heart. Don't hate me because I like my own wife better than someone else's it doesn't mean you can't have a nice wife too. Nice chops on rainswept blues. There were some tricky moves in there to execute. Nice touch, I was impressed and you kept my attention. Enjoyed the fingerpicking rhythm and the Les Paul sounded pretty sweet.

 

[Crunchity]

Thanks for the vote of confidence boss, you're all heart. Don't hate me because I like my own wife better than someone else's it doesn't mean you can't have a nice wife too. Nice chops on rainswept blues. There were some tricky moves in there to execute. Nice touch, I was impressed and you kept my attention. Enjoyed the fingerpicking rhythm and the Les Paul sounded pretty sweet.

Thanks chief.

I relate to the mixing point - after the writing (and kind of pre-mixing while tracking) you hear the material so much I almost never want to hear it again when the project is finished.

 

[RevDrucifer]

I like "To the Water" the best, that had a great vibe to it and drew me in. "You don't know music" was cool but I felt cheated because there was no vocal.

Mixing is my least favorite part of music making so don't feel bad. I make my drummer generate rough mixes because he loves it and then I provide any further input. I can't stand to listen to stuff over and over when I've already done that while writing it.

I didn't care for the strat tone much on straturday night. Your licks and feeling on it were nice though. I hate strats so if you make a strats rule thread I might be in there raising some hell. Maybe I'm just jealous cause you can make one of those torture devices work and I can't, lol.

Mixing has been the longest thing for me to learn due to all the variables. All that stuff was done on tiny Yamaha HS5’s in an untreated room but I just upgraded to HS8’s last week and am going through the hell of learning how those translate. And yeah, I’m practically sick to death of everything I’ve ever posted because by the time it gets posted, I’ve heard it for weeks. The recording goes by quick, that’s all done in less than a day usually, it’s the fucking mixing that sucks up time.

I’ve got vocals already written for those songs, I just haven’t been able to track them in my apartment. The screaming stuff isn’t as loud as it sounds, but Jesus do I get loud when I sing.

I actually hated those kinds of Strat tones as well, right up until I got that AxeFX. They still aren’t my favorite, that’s why EJ and Gilmour are my favorite Strat guys, they don’t make ‘em sound like Strats. And that song is a perfect example of not always digging what I write; I was noodling on my couch, played the B and A chords and the vocal melody popped in my head, 45 minutes later the song was tracked in Logic. If I don’t get them out of my head, they get stuck in there like an annoying song does, so I just run with it and see what happens.

I appreciate a non-troll post, though!

 

[jtees4]

I've had everything over the years, and it's many years as I am almost 66. I've had all kinds of guitars and amps since the 60's. early 60'sAmpegs, Marshall Major, Fender Twin, Fender Super Twin, Earth G2000, Sound City, Traynor, Peavey, Crate, a few more I forget. I used modellers with frfr's, and now I am using a Boss Katana Artist mii alone, I love it and it sounds great. They all have a place, and no normal person using stock presets, maybe only as a starting point.