Proof there is a God

311splawndude said:
*that is to everyone, not just Monti
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I think Monti is frustrated because some of us are assessing his arguments differently than him, arguments which he views as obvious and unassailable. On the other hand, in my view the issue with Mary is a reasonable point to raise when considering tensions between scriptural and ecclesiastic authority. I am just not sure that it immediately "Proves" Protestantism over Orthodoxy. For one thing, Protestant churches themselves disagree about many matters — does that indict Protestantism as lacking "authority" as an approach to Christianity?
 
311splawndude said:
Friend(s*), I don't think there is a final answer here :dunno:
There are thousands of denominations
If you are not for Freedom of Religion - then you are in the wrong Country.
Just sayin'

*that is to everyone, not just Monti
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I understand where you are coming from @311splawndude
I went back and re-read every post in this entire thread this morning and am a bit confused as to why any would label me overtly "angry". @VonBonfire was just as aggressive in his attack. Please also note, thread post #35 is where he initially took this thread the direction it went it and began attacking Protestantism. Having said that, I admire your desire to keep things civil and am all for it.

I don't however agree with you about "if your not for freedom of religion - then you are in the wrong country".
Islam believes that anyone opposed to them is the infidel and should be killed and they are incredibly oppressive to women. That has no place in the united states of america.

In addition, I am vehemently opposed to the "church of satan", also has no place in our country.

my frustration isn't over others disagreeing. It's with clearly showing that the bible says something and having others say " it's just your interpretation".
at least say " ok that's what the bible says but I don't believe it", at least that would be more honest.

I liken it to showing someone that clouds are white and them saying "well that's just your interpretation".
I clearly demonstrated that the bible holds all human beings sinful excluding Christ the God man and yet @VonBonfire continued to maintain his beliefs were in harmony with the bible while holding to mary's holiness.

my conscience is bound by scripture I cannot and will not apologize for it.
I do wish you the best though friend.
 
I agree there are different ways to interpret passages in the Bible. That alone will cause discourse/debate.
That's partly why you guys can debate until you are blue in the face - it won't change minds.
I'm not a huge fan of declaring something the ONLY way, and everyone else is wrong.
Similar to how I respect @VonBonfire 's belief that the Earth is not round.
@VonBonfire is very firm in his beliefs. He has come a long way to get to his current view. He is very vocal about it.
@MontiCristo you are still fairly new here, and may not recognize some have strong personalities so grains of salt needed.
I agree that believing in death or hate to certain population segments is way wrong - but that doesn't change the First Amendment.
Carry on :yes:
 
311splawndude said:
I agree there are different ways to interpret passages in the Bible. That alone will cause discourse/debate.
That's partly why you guys can debate until you are blue in the face - it won't change minds.
I'm not a huge fan of declaring something the ONLY way, and everyone else is wrong.
Similar to how I respect @VonBonfire 's belief that the Earth is not round.
@VonBonfire is very firm in his beliefs. He has come a long way to get to his current view. He is very vocal about it.
@MontiCristo you are still fairly new here, and may not recognize some have strong personalities so grains of salt needed.
I agree that believing in death or hate to certain population segments is way wrong - but that doesn't change the First Amendment.
Carry on :yes:
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I hear ya man. Good points.
But I do wonder if your statement "I'm not a huge fan of declaring something the ONLY way, and everyone else is wrong" is entirely true.
You can't make that generalized of a statement, because you don't believe that, no one does.
There are objective truths. If truth is subjective if fails to exist.

For example, if you stood and said "eating rotten food is unhealthy and will make you sick" you would be standing on something that is "the ONLY way" and you would be right. It is empirically, scientifically, biologically true that eating rotten food isn't' healthy and will make you sick. Anyone holding to the antithetical position would be wrong.

Or if under the blanket of "freedom of religion" we started allowing individuals to practice what the Aztec's did with child sacrifice.
Standing and saying "this is wrong and the ONLY WAY", you would again be right.

So you can't make generalized statements like " we can't say something is right and everyone else is wrong".
It would be better to qualify that statement with context.
 
and of course there are different interpretations to sections of the bible.
However to hide under that blanket and imply it covers all of the bible would be foolish.

The scripture records the placement of the sun as a light for the day and the moon as a light for the night.
No one in their right mind would say " well that's just your interpretation" - we all know that both are there.

In context the disagreement was on one particular point of @VonBonfire position that the bible was in harmony with mary being sinless and it isn't.
It isn't found anywhere in the pages of scripture and the scripture is clear that every human being is sinful. It's not a matter of interpretation.

so it goes with several of his other positions

If someone claims the bible says something, they need to be able to prove that it does.
It is written there for all of us to see and read.
 
MontiCristo said:
I hear ya man. Good points.
But I do wonder if your statement "I'm not a huge fan of declaring something the ONLY way, and everyone else is wrong" is entirely true.
You can't make that generalized of a statement, because you don't believe that, no one does.
There are objective truths. If truth is subjective if fails to exist.

For example, if you stood and said "eating rotten food is unhealthy and will make you sick" you would be standing on something that is "the ONLY way" and you would be right. It is empirically, scientifically, biologically true that eating rotten food isn't' healthy and will make you sick. Anyone holding to the antithetical position would be wrong.

Or if under the blanket of "freedom of religion" we started allowing individuals to practice what the Aztec's did with child sacrifice.
Standing and saying "this is wrong and the ONLY WAY", you would again be right.

So you can't make generalized statements like " we can't say something is right and everyone else is wrong".
It would be better to qualify that statement with context.
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Great points for sure. You are not wrong. There are most certainly objective truths. I don't think anyone would argue that we are not typing on a forum with computers and smartphones, for example. Or that 300 + 11 = 311 :lol:

I'm just saying I try to live my life that no two people are the same and everyone is entitled to their own belief/opinion/subjective truths. Doesn't mean we can't debate or even argue. In the end, that is a big part of forums in the first place - OTC is all about that :yes:

As a side note:

I think most would agree that rotten food can make you sick. But if you were a starving homeless person eating out of a dumpster, you may have a slightly different perspective. So they take chances, and maybe sometimes do not get sick even after eating something rotten. I realize I'm stretching a bit so let me ask Google AI:

Some foods are intentionally rotted or aged to make them edible or improve their flavor, including:
Cheese: The process of making cheese involves controlling rot. Milk is treated with bacteria and enzymes to curdle it, and then the curds are formed and aged for days, weeks, or months.
Olives: Olives are rotted to make them edible.
Chocolate: Chocolate is rotted to make it edible.
Coffee: Coffee is rotted to make it edible.
Pickles: Pickles are rotted to improve their flavor.
Wine: Wine is rotted to improve its flavor.
 
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MontiCristo said:
and of course there are different interpretations to sections of the bible.
However to hide under that blanket and imply it covers all of the bible would be foolish.

The scripture records the placement of the sun as a light for the day and the moon as a light for the night.
No one in their right mind would say " well that's just your interpretation" - we all know that both are there.

In context the disagreement was on one particular point of @VonBonfire position that the bible was in harmony with mary being sinless and it isn't.
It isn't found anywhere in the pages of scripture and the scripture is clear that every human being is sinful. It's not a matter of interpretation.

so it goes with several of his other positions

If someone claims the bible says something, they need to be able to prove that it does.
It is written there for all of us to see and read.
Click to expand...
The issue with interpretation is that it depends on one's framework as well. Everyone approaches the book with a different idea about what it is, says, means, and how to interpret it. You believe the Bible is not authoritative unless it is 100% infallible, true, consistent, etc. That is not the case for everyone.

I want to go back to Rom 3:23. It states "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". An alternative view takes into account the context — IE Paul is exhorting the church of Rome not to get caught up in comparing status between Jews and Gentiles, and therefore not making a universal theological statement. To support this argument I offered Jesus as an example of a human having no sin, which you agreed is true. Therefore, it is conceivable that even though it is not mentioned explicitly, it is possible that the same applies to Mary.
 
MontiCristo said:
The scripture records the placement of the sun as a light for the day and the moon as a light for the night.
No one in their right mind would say " well that's just your interpretation" - we all know that both are there.
Click to expand...

I dunno dude, there are probably a few here that would contest this and claim the sun and moon are nothing more than projections on a giant screen. :LOL:
 
acceptance said:
I think Monti is frustrated because some of us are assessing his arguments differently than him, arguments which he views as obvious and unassailable. On the other hand, in my view the issue with Mary is a reasonable point to raise when considering tensions between scriptural and ecclesiastic authority. I am just not sure that it immediately "Proves" Protestantism over Orthodoxy. For one thing, Protestant churches themselves disagree about many matters — does that indict Protestantism as lacking "authority" as an approach to Christianity?
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I think you and vonbonfire just like conspiracy theories when it comes to absolutely everything.
 
MontiCristo said:
I don't however agree with you about "if your not for freedom of religion - then you are in the wrong country".
Islam believes that anyone opposed to them is the infidel and should be killed and they are incredibly oppressive to women. That has no place in the united states of america.

In addition, I am vehemently opposed to the "church of satan", also has no place in our country.
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I don't want to get too sidetracked here but this is an entirely un-American sentiment. You should also remember that only relatively recently were women given the right to vote in the US. Some people still believe it was a bad idea. And Islam for example is a varied religion, not a monolith — and apparently the majority of muslim women prefer to live as they do. Who are you to question that?
 
Thumbpicker said:
I think you and vonbonfire just like conspiracy theories when it comes to absolutely everything.
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A conspiracy theory is just a belief not sanctioned by the controlling establishments of the world. These sorts don't really like to out themselves — see what happened to your brave citizen Julian Assange for more on that.

If you think powerful people don't conspire to further their ends you are pretty naive man.
 
acceptance said:
I don't want to get too sidetracked here but this is an entirely un-American sentiment. You should also remember that only relatively recently were women given the right to vote in the US. Some people still believe it was a bad idea. And Islam for example is a varied religion, not a monolith — and apparently the majority of muslim women prefer to live as they do. Who are you to question that?
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What's the motto of the US again... Was it:
A: In Satan we Trust
B: In God we Trust
C: In Allah we Trust
D: In Nothing we Trust.

Maybe your motto is un-American?
 
acceptance said:
That motto is not a requirement for being an American. And you're reading Jesus as God. Not everyone believes in the same god anyways — especially including the founders of the country.
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Then it would be god not God.

Also saying Jesus is God is correct but God the Father is God too and so is the Holy Spirit.
 
I will say however that America is not some new zion or anything more special than any other country. I do not believe in American exceptionalism. I believe in western exceptionalism.
 
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