Proof there is a God

VonBonfire said:
You keep bringing up non orthodox talking points, which isn't surprising considering you have zero experience or knowledge of the church. So everything you and montecristo post is in total ignorance. Mary isn't deified in orthodoxy, she simply has a special place above the saints but below Christ since she is Christ's mother. You guys talk about orthodoxy like it's catholicism but you're way off base.
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You say she isn't deified but you pray to her. That's pretty damn close to idolatry in my book.
 
Thumbpicker said:
My question to you is why does it matter to Orthodox Christians and Catholics that they create a mythology that she was sinless and didn't sin... They are trying to deify her so they can exult her and distract from the main game Jesus. That's one of the Devil's tricks. Get people to worship the wrong thing and misunderstand why Jesus came. Jesus is all we need as our high priest we don't need other priests, saints or Mary. It's a joke really.
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Personally I don't see why it would matter one way or the other because it's focusing on a detail that wouldn't make a difference in the bigger picture of the bible's teachings. It's a not seeing the forest through the trees type situation. If she sinned does it upend the entirety of Orthodoxy? If she was sinless does it destroy the teaching of Protestantism? In both cases I would say no.
 
@VonBonfire "have zero experience or knowledge of the church"

perhaps because outside of your talking points, you haven't provided any supporting documentation for what these beliefs are other than the apostles creed. I asked by what standard you can measure the apostles creed and you never answered.
 
Thumbpicker said:
You say she isn't deified but you pray to her. That's pretty damn close to idolatry in my book.
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Veneration and asking for interecession isn't "praying to Mary". You are doing exactly what I said you were, assigning catholic beliefs to orthodoxy. You don't know the first thing about it. You're just a loudmouth blowhard hoping to win a conversation. You just sound like someone who doesn't know what they are talking about, cause you don't.
 
MadAsAHatter said:
Personally I don't see why it would matter one way or the other because it's focusing on a detail that wouldn't make a difference in the bigger picture of the bible's teachings. It's a not seeing the forest through the trees type situation. If she sinned does it upend the entirety of Orthodoxy? If she was sinless does it destroy the teaching of Protestantism? In both cases I would say no.
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The whole Bible leads to Jesus and atoning sacrifice for our sins from the OT all the way through the NT. It makes a big difference in my opinion. We worship and pray to God through Jesus. Not Mary, not saints. All Christians are "the saints" incidentally but we don't pray to them.
 
MadAsAHatter said:
Personally I don't see why it would matter one way or the other because it's focusing on a detail that wouldn't make a difference in the bigger picture of the bible's teachings. It's a not seeing the forest through the trees type situation. If she sinned does it upend the entirety of Orthodoxy? If she was sinless does it destroy the teaching of Protestantism? In both cases I would say no.
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on the contrary brother, it would completely dismantle the teachings of scripture.

#1 about all of humanity being sinful - if mary isn't then the bible would be lying
#2 about Jesus being the only sinless one - if mary isn't then the bible would be lying
#3 about how it's impossible for those in the flesh to please God apart from faith
#4 about how no man could be made righteous by the works of the law (not sinning)

and many more.
 
MontiCristo said:
@MadAsAHatter - Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit. Seems some get confused by His being birthed from a sinful human mother as somehow contradicting His sinlessness. Had He been conceived through normal human interaction, absolutely He would have been sinful and in need of a savior Himself. It is the immaculate conception of the Spirit that separates the sinfulness of Mary's humanity. Hope that makes sense.
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Yeah, that makes sense.
 
VonBonfire said:
Veneration and asking for interecession isn't "praying to Mary". You are doing exactly what I said you were, assigning catholic beliefs to orthodoxy. You don't know the first thing about it. You're just a loudmouth blowhard hoping to win a conversation. You just sound like someone who doesn't know what they are talking about, cause you don't.
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where is "veneration" in the bible?
show us

you can make this easier on yourself and save me from asking that 100 times today if you will just admit that you hold to things that the bible doesn't teach and your statements about your belief system being in "harmony with the bible" are false.
 
MontiCristo said:
on the contrary brother, it would completely dismantle the teachings of scripture.

#1 about all of humanity being sinful - if mary isn't then the bible would be lying
#2 about Jesus being the only sinless one - if mary isn't then the bible would be lying
#3 about how it's impossible for those in the flesh to please God apart from faith
#4 about how no man could be made righteous by the works of the law (not sinning)

and many more.
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No wonder you are so freaked out. If something is off the whole thing falls apart. How on earth did anyone even get saved before they had a nice leather bound Bible to read and argue about?!
 
MontiCristo said:
where is "veneration" in the bible?
show us

you can make this easier on yourself and save me from asking that 100 times today if you will just admit that you hold to things that the bible doesn't teach and your statements about your belief system being in "harmony with the bible" are false.
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It's futile talking to them because they don't acknowledge the Bible as the benchmark.

I was reading a Catholic thing yesterday and they say they follow tradition and the Bible is part of that tradition but tradition is far larger than the Bible. So that way they can depart from the Bible as much as they like as humans and call it "tradition" and justify it as ok. Again it's a joke really.
 
acceptance said:
No wonder you are so freaked out. If something is off the whole thing falls apart. How on earth did anyone even get saved before they had a nice leather bound Bible to read and argue about?!
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why do ya'll keep accusing me of being freaked out?
is it because you can't keep up?
i have shown no further aggression than anyone here.
i read the thread in it's entirety this morning and several were aggresive.
but there hasn't been anything overtly rude other than my calling you an insect and I apologized for it.
 
Thumbpicker said:
The whole Bible leads to Jesus and atoning sacrifice for our sins from the OT all the way through the NT. It makes a big difference in my opinion. We worship and pray to God through Jesus. Not Mary, not saints. All Christians are "the saints" incidentally but we don't pray to them.
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I get that. I was just saying whether Mary was sinless or not likely wouldn't change anything for any denomination.
 
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