Church of Scientology's 'Operating Thetan' documents leaked

[Copperhead]

I don't really follow this crap but is this kind of like that Heaven's Gate B.S.? I remember when I lived in Southern California, there was a large group of these cult members who took their own lives so they could live in the other world.

.....they found some more heaven's gate bodies.......


















They were under the sink, behind the Comet......

 

[ejecta]

Of course, I can still choose to believe that what someone else believes is completely ridiculous.

Steve

Steve Im not writing this directly to you as Im just speaking generally to an idea here. Real quick though, I too grew up in a very religious household and completely understand where you are coming from as I too walked away from it at one point as I too had had enough. Anyway thats another story, the only reason I qouted what you said is because it sparked a thought Id like to share. While I too hate "religious institutions" as in the institutions that men use to further their own agenda, (btw Jesus hated that also) I find that not all religions or beliefs in God are just that.

That said, I also find it inconsistant to claim that all religions are man made and just thought up. Let me explain... to do so is to claim that you have the ability sit back and see everything in this world and history as a whole. It also smacks of the idea that you have total knowledge of all history and complete understanding how the world works and where things orginate from..... ie you claim to know it all as you know for a fact that all religions are based on a falsehood. I find it ironic that the finger is always pointed at "religious" people as the ones that are close minded know-it-alls, when the ones who say such things are just as guilty of the same when they try and prove people of faith are wrong to believe in what they do.

I personally find it better to not lump people and their beliefs into big stereo typical groups and alow alot of room in this world for some mystery and awe at the complex world we live in. Just my worlthless .02

 

[Telephant]

Those people preaching hate are not Christians

I know, thats why I dont mind fucking with them.

 

[Anonymous]

Of course, I can still choose to believe that what someone else believes is completely ridiculous.

Steve

Steve Im not writing this directly to you as Im just speaking generally to an idea here. Real quick though, I too grew up in a very religious household and completely understand where you are coming from as I too walked away from it at one point as I too had had enough. Anyway thats another story, the only reason I qouted what you said is because it sparked a thought Id like to share. While I too hate "religious institutions" as in the institutions that men use to further their own agenda, (btw Jesus hated that also) I find that not all religions or beliefs in God are just that.

That said, I also find it inconsistant to claim that all religions are man made and just thought up. Let me explain... to do so is to claim that you have the ability sit back and see everything in this world and history as a whole. It also smacks of the idea that you have total knowledge of all history and complete understanding how the world works and where things orginate from..... ie you claim to know it all as you know for a fact that all religions are based on a falsehood. I find it ironic that the finger is always pointed at "religious" people as the ones that are close minded know-it-alls, when the ones who say such things are just as guilty of the same when they try and prove people of faith are wrong to believe in what they do.

I personally find it better to not lump people and their beliefs into big stereo typical groups and alow alot of room in this world for some mystery and awe at the complex world we live in. Just my worlthless .02

This is a very well thought out, but misguided analysis of what I said. Of course, you did say you were speaking generally and not directly to me, but since you did quote me, allow me to retort...

The bottom line is that I don't claim to have a total understanding of history, nor do I think all people who have religious beliefs are close minded. I'm not lumping all people together in any way. What I am lumping together is the general belief across most religions I know of that there is a god that you have to in some way worship/pray to/whatever to thank him/her and to obtain passage to some divine place in the afterlife. It isn't history that makes me think this concept is ridiculous, it is what I can feel/see/touch/etc. I see no evidence today, right now, that this concept of god is anything more than a man made story. Everything I see can be explained without the concept of a god. I don't believe in blind faith. To believe something, I need evidence. If god wants to cruise over and have a chat, I'm all ears. Surely he can take some time out of his busy day to make himself known to all of use in a concrete way. Just my, even more worthless, .02...

Steve

 

[ejecta]

Of course, I can still choose to believe that what someone else believes is completely ridiculous.

Steve

Steve Im not writing this directly to you as Im just speaking generally to an idea here. Real quick though, I too grew up in a very religious household and completely understand where you are coming from as I too walked away from it at one point as I too had had enough. Anyway thats another story, the only reason I qouted what you said is because it sparked a thought Id like to share. While I too hate "religious institutions" as in the institutions that men use to further their own agenda, (btw Jesus hated that also) I find that not all religions or beliefs in God are just that.

That said, I also find it inconsistant to claim that all religions are man made and just thought up. Let me explain... to do so is to claim that you have the ability sit back and see everything in this world and history as a whole. It also smacks of the idea that you have total knowledge of all history and complete understanding how the world works and where things orginate from..... ie you claim to know it all as you know for a fact that all religions are based on a falsehood. I find it ironic that the finger is always pointed at "religious" people as the ones that are close minded know-it-alls, when the ones who say such things are just as guilty of the same when they try and prove people of faith are wrong to believe in what they do.

I personally find it better to not lump people and their beliefs into big stereo typical groups and alow alot of room in this world for some mystery and awe at the complex world we live in. Just my worlthless .02

This is a very well thought out, but misguided analysis of what I said. Of course, you did say you were speaking generally and not directly to me, but since you did quote me, allow me to retort...

The bottom line is that I don't claim to have a total understanding of history, nor do I think all people who have religious beliefs are close minded. I'm not lumping all people together in any way. What I am lumping together is the general belief across most religions I know of that there is a god that you have to in some way worship/pray to/whatever to thank him/her and to obtain passage to some divine place in the afterlife. It isn't history that makes me think this concept is ridiculous, it is what I can feel/see/touch/etc. I see no evidence today, right now, that this concept of god is anything more than a man made story. Everything I see can be explained without the concept of a god. I don't believe in blind faith. To believe something, I need evidence. If god wants to cruise over and have a chat, I'm all ears. Surely he can take some time out of his busy day to make himself known to all of use in a concrete way. Just my, even more worthless, .02...

Steve

Yeah I thought I could miss where you were coming from and didnt think that you were coming from that direction, but what you wrote sparked the thought I had. Anyway thats why what I wrote at the begining about it really not being about what you wrote per se. Thanks for sharing your thoughts my man. One thing though, doesnt the complexity of the world and the things in it make you wonder how it could just happen from nothing? IMHO that takes alot of faith the believe that.

 

[peaveyT60]

I don't really follow this crap but is this kind of like that Heaven's Gate B.S.? I remember when I lived in Southern California, there was a large group of these cult members who took their own lives so they could live in the other world.

That Heaven's Gate cult was full of even bigger fruitcakes. Those guys had to be castrated and the women and men all shaved their heads. They thought the comet that was coming near the Earth at that time had a spacecraft flying alongside it (hidden in the tail of the comet, I believe) and it was coming to "beam them up." They all committed suicide over several days and wore special uniforms for this occassion (I remember the black and white Nike shoes being part of their uniform.) When someone died, they layed a diamond shaped purple cloth over them.

Really weird stuff.

SNL did a skit with Will Ferrell about the heaven's gate cult right after it happened. you gotta see it. hilarious!


yup, super weirdos. that main dude (applewhite/applegate ??) has the craziest bug eyes i have ever seen.

 

[Juggernaut]

 

[defpearlpilot]

Yeah I thought I could miss where you were coming from and didnt think that you were coming from that direction, but what you wrote sparked the thought I had. Anyway thats why what I wrote at the begining about it really not being about what you wrote per se. Thanks for sharing your thoughts my man. One thing though, doesnt the complexity of the world and the things in it make you wonder how it could just happen from nothing? IMHO that takes alot of faith the believe that.

The way that I see it is that the certainty of scientific conclusions tends to increase as time goes on. The reason is because we'll have more data. At this point in time, how it all started is a big question mark to me as well. It may well be something that we'll never find out ever(the human race that is). But for other heated arguments like global warming and evolution, these things will become more concrete as time goes on. The question is, will we survive long enough without destroying the earth to figure it out.

BTW, regarding the open-mindedness thing. I find it odd that the religious claim that non-religious aren't open-minded for the reason that faith is something that cannot be appealed to by logic. Meaning that my arguments will never change your mind. It's something that you will do on your own regarding faith. However, a logical person(in general) could be appealed to if the argument had merit. I think a true science is about making mistakes in order to come up with the proper conclusions. But I would imagine that scientists also have agendas and pride. The thing that is great about that is that there are checks and balances against scientific claims. I'm not sure that the same can be said of faith because it's such a personal thing.

Either way, it's good to have a rational dialog about this stuff.

 

[peaveyT60]

i'd trust that guy...........








... SIKE!

 

[ejecta]

BTW, regarding the open-mindedness thing. I find it odd that the religious claim that non-religious aren't open-minded for the reason that faith is something that cannot be appealed to by logic. Meaning that my arguments will never change your mind. It's something that you will do on your own regarding faith. However, a logical person(in general) could be appealed to if the argument had merit. I think a true science is about making mistakes in order to come up with the proper conclusions. But I would imagine that scientists also have agendas and pride. The thing that is great about that is that there are checks and balances against scientific claims. I'm not sure that the same can be said of faith because it's such a personal thing.

Either way, it's good to have a rational dialog about this stuff.

Oh I agree that its good to have non heated rational discussions. I dont know why those from either side get mad. I find these discussions facinating. Anyway, on to your "faith is something that cant be apealed to by logic." Im not so sure that's always true. For example, if you walked up to this new sports car that's really really cool looking. It has a sleak aerodynamic body, pop the hood and there is one of the fastest engines youve seen.... one thing you would do is look for an emblem to find out who makes the car because the maker of the car isnt anywhere near the car to tell you about it. Any logical person wouldnt IMHO just look at the car and say "Wow! Isnt it amazing that this car evolved out of nothing because I cant see the maker of the car." At that point you would just have faith in the maker of the car existance becasue they couldnt be seen at the moment. A car's complexity pails in comparision to the complexity of the DNA code which is a basic building block of a very functioning dynamic ecosystem and to life itself. To think this all just happend isnt logical to me.

 

[redrol]

To think this all just happend isnt logical to me.

It didn't all 'just happen'. Natural selection is what causes evolution. They are the exact opposite of 'just happening'. If I dumped you into a lake you would drown. This is natural selection of an organism that cannot swim in a water environment. Not very hard to understand.

 

[ejecta]

To think this all just happend isnt logical to me.

It didn't all 'just happen'. Natural selection is what causes evolution. They are the exact opposite of 'just happening'. If I dumped you into a lake you would drown. This is natural selection of an organism that cannot swim in a water environment. Not very hard to understand.

So the appearance of the earth, the life on it, and it's place in a functioning universe are a result of natural selection?

 

[tweed]

Hey quit arguing. Either post some pics of weirded out cult leaders, rockstars in scientology talking on youtube or goofy nike sneakers or stfu. Try and stay on topic people.

 

[Anonymous]

One thing though, doesnt the complexity of the world and the things in it make you wonder how it could just happen from nothing? IMHO that takes alot of faith the believe that.

I have to say that, no, the complexity of the world does not make me wonder how it could just happen from nothing. It just is what it is. I just think evolution took its course and here we are. I'm not looking for any deeper meaning. The truth is that all our lives are empty and meaningless in and of themselves. WE add the meaning to everything, there is no inherent meaning... In the vastness of history and future we are but a blip...

Steve

 

[Juggernaut]

Hey quit arguing. Either post some pics of weirded out cult leaders, rockstars in scientology talking on youtube or goofy nike sneakers or stfu. Try and stay on topic people.

+1

I'm telling you watch the crazy assed videos on here.

http://www.xenutv.com

The Harrassment Chronicles are bizarre....

"Whats your crime? what are you afraid of?" these people are some brain-washed robots.....

 

[redrol]

To think this all just happend isnt logical to me.

It didn't all 'just happen'. Natural selection is what causes evolution. They are the exact opposite of 'just happening'. If I dumped you into a lake you would drown. This is natural selection of an organism that cannot swim in a water environment. Not very hard to understand.

So the appearance of the earth, the life on it, and it's place in a functioning universe are a result of natural selection?

essentially yes, we are all evolved star dust

 

[ejecta]

I have to say that, no, the complexity of the world does not make me wonder how it could just happen from nothing. It just is what it is. I just think evolution took its course and here we are. I'm not looking for any deeper meaning. The truth is that all our lives are empty and meaningless in and of themselves. WE add the meaning to everything, there is no inherent meaning... In the vastness of history and future we are but a blip...

Steve

Thats cool and thanks for sharing your thoughts and I appreciate and respect your view of things. I just find it hard to logically look at the world and say life, ethics, love, hate, peace, war, a since of justice, social systems, eco systems, economic systems, etc etc just evolved from a vacum in space and that life really has no meaning at all other than what I put into it. BUT that doesnt mean I think any less of you and your beliefs by any stretch. I respect you as a fellow human being and rocker and I again appreciate your posting your thoughts.

 

[ejecta]

essentially yes, we are all evolved star dust

Where did the star dust evolve from?

 

[Anonymous]

For example, if you walked up to this new sports car that's really really cool looking. It has a sleak aerodynamic body, pop the hood and there is one of the fastest engines youve seen.... one thing you would do is look for an emblem to find out who makes the car because the maker of the car isnt anywhere near the car to tell you about it. Any logical person wouldnt IMHO just look at the car and say "Wow! Isnt it amazing that this car evolved out of nothing because I cant see the maker of the car." At that point you would just have faith in the maker of the car existance becasue they couldnt be seen at the moment. A car's complexity pails in comparision to the complexity of the DNA code which is a basic building block of a very functioning dynamic ecosystem and to life itself. To think this all just happend isnt logical to me.

I'm not buying this analogy at all. A logical person seeing a car in front of them isn't going to assume it evolved out of nothing because it doesn't have an emblem or a person there saying they built it. They are going to assume someone built it because they have consistent evidence that when a car appears somewhere it was built by someone. They would not assume it based on the complexity of the car's design, but based on signficant quantifiable evidence that cars do not just appear and that every one they have ever seen was built and designed by humans. That is a rational position to take based on all previous evidence.

As far as the DNA code goes, there is good scientific evidence supporting the concept that the complexity you speak of evolved over a signficant period of time. The illogical conclusion (based on faith) would be that some master being had to be responsible for it and have a "plan" that it would be the way it is. The more rationale conclusion would be that the Earth came into being (many scientific theories on how), conditions changed allowing life to be supported and life evolved from that point to know. This is a logical, evidence driven approach to explaining why we are where we are here on Earth...

Steve

 

[Anonymous]

I have to say that, no, the complexity of the world does not make me wonder how it could just happen from nothing. It just is what it is. I just think evolution took its course and here we are. I'm not looking for any deeper meaning. The truth is that all our lives are empty and meaningless in and of themselves. WE add the meaning to everything, there is no inherent meaning... In the vastness of history and future we are but a blip...

Steve

Thats cool and thanks for sharing your thoughts and I appreciate and respect your view of things. I just find it hard to logically look at the world and say life, ethics, love, hate, peace, war, a since of justice, social systems, eco systems, economic systems, etc etc just evolved from a vacum in space and that life really has no meaning at all other than what I put into it. BUT that doesnt mean I think any less of you and your beliefs by any stretch. I respect you as a fellow human being and rocker and I again appreciate your posting your thoughts.

As you know, I respect your right to believe what you do as well, regardless of what I think. Thanks for your thoughts... now go play your guitar!

Steve